[sustran] Re: "cost of about $1, 300 apiece" // Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2

Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory edelman at greenidea.info
Sat Oct 13 02:20:01 JST 2007


Autofrei Wohnen wrote:
> Dear Walter,
>
> in this german wikipedia
> http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrradverleih#Paris
> I found this information:
>
> "Die Fahrräder sind aus ungarischer Produktion (Marke Mercier) und kosten
> 1.300 Dollar pro Stück."
>
> =  The Bikes are from hungarian production (Mercier Company) (1) and cost
> 1,300 Dollar each (2).
>
> Sources:
> (1) in german: http://trapa.twoday.net/stories/3521778/comment
> (2)
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301753.html
> ("... JCDecaux will provide all of the bikes (at a cost of about $1,300
> apiece) and build the pickup/drop-off stations. ...") interesting article
> (March 24, 2007; Page A10) with more details
>   
OKAY,  thats about EUR 900.... x 20000 bikes is EUR 18 million... even 
including other technology and start up costs, how do we come to the EUR 
90 million figure mentioned in an earlier email? JCD is going to be 
making EUR 60 million per year on ads... more than three times the cost 
of the bikes.
> *
>
> My first thought was the one Lloyd expressed, "why don`t they use the taxes
> ?! They use taxes for everything else. Why not for this programme ???"
> This discussion was really interesting (thank you), and I understand it this
> way: In the beginning of something "new" politicians are unsure if they make
> the point with it. so they test it. They think: "If it fails, I can say to
> the people: `It was not financed with your taxes, it was a separate thing.´"
>   
BUT we only have an example of a system started by selling off public 
space... I am curious if any city authorities are thinking about funding 
a system like this in a different way... San Francisco... Chicago... 
does JCD own the patents etc. on the technology? That would give even 
less incentive for a city to do it on their own.
> I think, the anger comes from that point: Why is everything
> "new-sustainable-etc-pp" always only an extra / separated "programme", why 
> is
> that not the conventional standard ? ...
>
> However, I think, like you and Pascal, it is good that they started it, with
> whatever money, in the meaning of "one small step towards more carfree
> spaces".
>   
CARFREE spaces? OR replacement mobility? Remember that most of us drone 
on and on "the bike is faster than the car at short distances"... there 
was some mention a few days ago that car use has gone down in Paris... I 
am curious if the modal share of walking has changed. If bikes replace 
feet, is that good? Sure, people are free to choose their truly 
sustainable mode... or are they? The wheel, no matter what is moving it, 
is very sexy.
> But, nevertheless, I like Todd`s "threatened by convenience and pragmatism"
> in his blog ... we need to keep this in mind, but don`t let us overwhelme by
> this attitude ...
>   
WALK around your city... every cultural event is "partner this" and 
"partner that", nearly every surface covered with consumer 
encouragement. When do we say "no more!"  Should we cover the moon with 
a Coca Cola logo so everyone on earth can ride bikes? "It is okay, 
because JCDecaux will guarantee that the Earth will not be hit by a 
meteor for ten years".... sorry, I am not looking forward to where 
"Bikes for Billboards" is going in regards to its bad side.

Remember also that the whole system is also a big advert for JCDecaux 
itself, and after a number of months or years  - we haven't yet come up 
with the correct figure - they will be making a huge amount, millions 
every year, for their facilitation of visual pollution and whatever 
content is included.

I like the good side of this deal, so build one less 
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lockheed_Martin_F-22.jpg> and buy 
100,000 Velib-type bikes instead and with the spare change pay JCDecaux 
a licensing fee for their clever work.

- T
> best wishes from Berlin,
> Markus
> www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Walter Hook" <whook at itdp.org>
> To: <lwright at vivacities.org>; <eric.britton at ecoplan.org>;
> <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>; <NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:46 PM
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2
>
>
> We read somewhere that the bikes cost something like 3000 euros, which seems
> impossible , and we could not confirm it.  There is some fancy electronic
> gadgetry inside them to signal mechanical failures, etc, but how could they
> be so expensive? Anyone got any intel on this?
>
> walter
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf
> Of Lloyd Wright
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 10:41 AM
> To: eric.britton at ecoplan.org; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org;
> NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2
>
> It would be interesting to know how much of the 90 million euros is for
> the system infrastructure and management as opposed to the cost of the
> advertising.  I would imagine the advertising side has both
> infrastructure, management, and marketing (cost of attracting and
> retaining clients) components.  It would be important to separate out
> the bicycle system from the advertising business to understand the
> costs.
>
> Even at 200 euros per bike, 20,000 bicycles only comes to 4 million
> euros.  The bicycles should have a life of perhaps 7 to 10 years.  Thus,
> on an amortised basis, the bikes are only about 400,000 euros per year.
> Certainly, the stations are an infrastructure investment (but again with
> probably a long life) and there are annual management costs.
>
> But it is difficult to see how it comes to 90 million euros.  Thus, I
> suspect that the costs of advertising component must be huge.  Also, I
> suspect that JCD has an incentive to inflate the numbers as much as
> possible to claim the goodwill of their investment.
>
> Best,
>
> Lloyd
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: Eric Britton [mailto:eric.britton at ecoplan.org]
> Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:50 AM
> To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org; NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2
>
>
>
> A few more pieces of the Euro puzzle from sent on by our friend Ronan
> taken from recent articles in the financial press here.  I rough
> translate and summarize for you if necessary.
>
>
>
> 1.       From La Tribune -
> http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/13082007/155/velib-un-pari-risque-pour-jcdecaux.
> html
> JCD investing 90 million Euros (high figure to date), covering all
> project costs but gaining access to those 1600 on-street (sidewalk
> actually) panels. Penalties for underperformance on contact specs.  JCD
> taking a risk/potential bath on the margins, cause they got to do it.
>
>
>
> 2.       From http://www.marchespublics.net/actualite/edito.php?id=1256
>
>  - The usual Vélib' numbers +  guarantee of 285 full time
> job-equivalents + all costs for system to be covered by JCD for the ten
> years of the contract. + City of Paris to get all income from bikes +
> 3.5 Euros paid to city by JCD year - and all that against 1600 public
> advertising spaces, which someone has figured should get them on the
> order of 60 million Euros/year for the contract period.  And all that
> with a system of penalties for failing to meet performance goals and
> incentives for doing better.
>
> The author of that piece -- Hervé Huguet, Citia, cabinet de conseil en
> achat public - makes the point that in his view the margins are very
> thin but that it's a great showcase for KCD (which for sure it is).
>
>
>
> That's one vantage of our ballpark. But it's really the benefits side
> that holds the bottom line (that plus the necessary separation of the
> deals into separate 2 contracts).  Which is where I need some help from
> you.
>
>
>
> And not in our enthusiasm for a kinder better world to kill the at least
> carbon-lite goose of course (as Walter Hook so wisely reminds us).
>
>
>
> Eric Britton
>
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-- 
--------------------------------------------

Todd Edelman
Director
Green Idea Factory

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