From edelman at greenidea.info Mon Oct 1 22:48:47 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Mon, 01 Oct 2007 15:48:47 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Wanted: Self-damaging public transport and cycling ads... and positive examples from pop culture Message-ID: <4700FABF.2050804@greenidea.info> Wanted: Self-damaging public transport and cycling ads... and positive examples of PT from pop culture What does this mean, exactly? In regards to public transport, it means things like this: That is: * Adverts on public transport vehicles or adjacent support structures owned or managed by the public transport provider, advertising companies, etc. which portrays PT in a negative light, insults customers/passengers.. and so on. (This does not mean things like the infamous "Creeps and Weirdos" which is negative about PT but was not - as far as I know - placed in the spaces I mention. By the way, notice the bike rack on the front of the bus?) * In regards to cycling, it can be less direct, meaning, e.g. automobile or other anti-environment ads in spaces in Lyon or Paris owned by JCDecaux which are part of the Velib public bikes deal. * And it can also mean bicycle ads or marketing which portray using PT as slow, crowded, etc. * Positive examples from pop culture would be things like this: , or this or even fun stuff like this: PT does not have to be the main focus of the piece... and it is better if it is not. * Bad portrayals of PT in pop culture and the media will inevitably show up in this investigation, but they are not what I am most interested in. * Also, if anyone has information on contracts between PT operators and any advertising contractors which specifically prohibit self-damaging adverts I would be happy to get it. +++++ I am collecting all this stuff to put on my Flickr page and/or my Blog and later on a website, for all to use. It depends on what kinds of contributions I receive. I think there are some collections of this stuff already out there, right? Thanks for your help, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From eric.britton at free.fr Fri Oct 5 03:26:58 2007 From: eric.britton at free.fr (eric.britton) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 20:26:58 +0200 Subject: [sustran] =?iso-8859-1?Q?Paris_V=E9lib=27_report_ready_for_review?= Message-ID: <024901c806b4$2e4df500$8ae9df00$@britton@free.fr> My advanced draft for the Paris V?lib' project is now ready for review and comment. Below you will see the TOC for the report which runs to some 52 pages. I think it is a fairly easy and I hope useful read. I will be pleased to send this on against comments, so if that sounds good to you get in touch with me privately and I'll send on a copy by return. Best/Eric Contents: Letter of <> invitation to Mayor and City Leaders. 3 Foreword <> . 5 1. <> New Mobility in Paris: The politics of transport 7 1.1 <> The Paris 2007 transport problematique in brief 8 1.2 <> A short history of Old and New Mobility in Paris. 10 1.3 <> Paris' new mobility toolbox: Building blocks for a sustainable city. 12 1.3 <> 2007 political priorities - Overview. 14 1.5 <> Screening criteria for selected Paris examples. 16 2. <> The groundwork: City Bike projects 1968-2007. 18 2.1 <> What's a "City Bike"?. 18 2.2 <> How they work and what they do. 19 2.3 <> A short history of City Bikes. 20 2.4 <> V?lo'v: Lyons shows the way. 22 2.5 <> Lessons learned. 23 2.6 <> Local cycling environment checklist 24 3. <> Paris's pioneering city bicycle project 25 3.1 <> Paris 2007 V?lib' project in brief: 26 3.2 <> How Velib' works: 27 3.3 <> What makes Velib' special?. 28 3.4 <> V?lib' status report- as of October 2007. 29 3.5 <> V?lib' Q&A - October 2007. 30 4. <> Reflections, observations and some recommendations. 32 4.1 <> Reflections. 32 4.2 Lessons from V?lib' 36 4.3 Recommendations. 40 4.5 The Reinvention Test: Criteria for selecting measures. 43 Acknowledgements: <> 44 Annexes <> . 45 A: <> Useful V?lib'/City Bike References (print and web) 45 B <> : Selected European City Bike Projects. 46 C: <> Public bike providers and contacts. 47 C: <> Sources of information and expertise for your City Bike system.. 48 D: Vol. 2.The Greening of Transport in Paris: 50 E. <> Vol. 4. City-Cycles Workbook - Table of contents. 51 From edelman at greenidea.info Sat Oct 6 09:28:45 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Sat, 06 Oct 2007 02:28:45 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Message-ID: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> "... hundreds of electric billboards have sprung up all over town. These are part of the deal in which the council provides extensive use of advertising space to an urban display company in payment for its provision of the V?lib? service. An anti-advertising group yesterday announced a mass outing to attack the billboards on Friday night [28 September]. The D?boulonneurs organisation, which has made a splash with guerrilla-style raids on M?tro station posters, said: ?This is visual pollution of the city . . . and energy pollution because each billboard consumes as much electricity as the average household.? -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From eric.britton at free.fr Sat Oct 6 15:47:26 2007 From: eric.britton at free.fr (eric.britton) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 08:47:26 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Message-ID: <012b01c807e4$c4181670$4c484350$@britton@free.fr> [Thanks so much for that good heads-up on this Todd. There's a lot to it. And indeed we have a section on this in our forthcoming Greening of Paris - V?lib' report. Vigilance is so important. Eric Britton] -----Original Message----- On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Saturday, 6 October 2007 02:29 "... hundreds of electric billboards have sprung up all over town. These are part of the deal in which the council provides extensive use of advertising space to an urban display company in payment for its provision of the V?lib' service. An anti-advertising group yesterday announced a mass outing to attack the billboards on Friday night [28 September]. The D?boulonneurs organisation, which has made a splash with guerrilla-style raids on M?tro station posters, said: "This is visual pollution of the city . . . and energy pollution because each billboard consumes as much electricity as the average household." -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman From eric.britton at free.fr Sun Oct 7 03:51:46 2007 From: eric.britton at free.fr (eric.britton) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 20:51:46 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Message-ID: <033801c80849$fa049be0$ee0dd3a0$@britton@free.fr> Todd Edelman kindly brought this matter to your attention this morning. And since I too have been concerned about it and certainly don?t wish this to become the Achilles heel of an otherwise great city project, I thought you might be interested to see how we are treating this in the V?lib? portion of the Greening of Paris report. I have cut this out for your convenience here, but if you have not a yet made your way to the full report at http://www.invent.newmobility.org (you?ll see it on the left menu) I hope this may encourage you to do so. And as said many times, we are still most interested in having your comments and critical remarks for improving. Kind thanks. Eric Britton >From ?V?lib? - Paris City Bike Project (http://www.invent.newmobility.org) The street advertising end of things (Oops!) This is turning out to be one of the less comfortable building blocks of this great project, and of which I think you as mayors and civic leaders should be made fully aware. You risk possibly to find yourselves in s similar situation in your city, so here is some early news to help you out. At present the contractual arrangements signed by the city of Paris provides a V?lib?/street advertising package. The present contract runs for ten years and has been signed by both the city and the contractor in full legal form. It is a binding contract. However we are seeing what I have to agree is a certain level of predatory abuse by the advertizing-implementing partner, in terms of (a) the number, intrusiveness and placement of the 1,628 panels to which they have been given the right by the City of Paris, and (b) (and more surprisingly) the very non-green energy consumption of the new, large and very intrusive rolling displays. Advance notice of this was provided by cycling, pedestrian and public space groups in Lyons after the V?lo-v project had started to mature. However somehow this did not seem to make its way to the Paris team in time to influence the contract signing with JCDecaux. Let?s have a quick look at this situation since it is an important point for your city if you are considering this option. Seen from the vantage of the advertiser, the contracting partner is just doing its job: attracting the attention of the largest number of people to the messages that their clients wish to bring to their attention. That is on the one side. The other is that there is a level of intrusiveness beyond which people are no longer free to enjoy their city because of this plethora of too many, to blatant messages on too many sides. Then too there are matters of public safety to be considered. Here are some of the claims that are being made by cycling, public space and environmental groups ? all of whom, incidentally, are strong supporters of the V?lib?? project other than for this one bit of abuse: * Visual pollution ? The large number of these panels, their placement and their technology are creating unnecessary intrusions and ?noise? in the daily lives of citizens * Size of the street displays ? they are said to be too large and obtrusive (the * Number of these displays ? The protesting groups claim that instead of the targeted 20% reduction in street displays specified in the contract, when you take into account the rolling displays, there is an increase of ?visual pollution? of some 220% * Their physical placement ? A number of the panels have been placed obtrusively on sidewalks , thus impeding pedestrian circulation and visibility * Energy waste ? One of the public interest groups has calculated that one of those motorized displays consumes as much energy as an average household uses for its domestic appliances. * Safety: Certainly if you are a driver or cyclist driving by one of these strategically place, very visible large signs and rotating displays, you are inevitably forced to an extent to take your eye off the road. That after all is why it is there. But this can be very hazardous as you can well imagine Strategies: This is a very complicated business, but in the last weeks we are seeing at least a path for how Paris might be able to deal with this threat ? and for you possibly important sink it suggest some strategizing which you can anticipate and head off this potential threat in advance. The public interest groups here in Paris are taking several approaches about which you may find it useful to know. They are looking at three things: 1. New and tighter guidelines for the displays 2. The possibility of legally abrogating and/or changing the conditions of the existing agreement. 3. Separation of the public/private partnership into two contracts; one for the service rendered (i.e., V?lib?) and the other for the advertizing portion Let?s look briefly at these in order. New display guidelines : More stringent limitations on size and placement. Complete suppression of all rolling and illuminated displays, including any that use sound or odors to attract public attention.. Contract challenges: (There is no discernable trail indicating how this might be accomplished at this point.) Separation of the present agreement into two separate parts: one contract which specifies the public service to be provided (V?lib?) with information on costs and performance (The present contract since it subsumes both aspects into a single global package is thus opaque in terms of costs (and benefits) and does not permit the city to have full control of the economic aspects of the public service.) Denis Baupin, the city counselor in charge of all transport projects in Paris has recently called this the ?municipalization? of what should in his view (and in mine) be a fully public service. He has argued in recent interviews that this will be important for other mayors in Paris as they look to establish such service in their own communities. And who can disagree with him on that? From edelman at greenidea.info Mon Oct 8 05:11:41 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 22:11:41 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <033801c80849$fa049be0$ee0dd3a0$@britton@free.fr> References: <033801c80849$fa049be0$ee0dd3a0$@britton@free.fr> Message-ID: <47093D7D.20203@greenidea.info> Hi Eric, Not sure how to word it exactly but IF the "Billboards for Bicycles" scheme is used the content of the advertisements has to not be damaging to sustainable transport. This essentially means no petroleum or private car ads. But of course that means that bike people or whatever sell out other causes as they as relate to other possible advertisers. So basically this whole funding model is TOTALLY ROTTEN AT A FOUNDATIONAL LEVEL. *** - T eric.britton wrote: > > Todd Edelman kindly brought this matter to your attention this > morning. And since I too have been concerned about it and certainly > don?t wish this to become the Achilles heel of an otherwise great city > project, I thought you might be interested to see how we are treating > this in the V?lib? portion of the Greening of Paris report. I have cut > this out for your convenience here, but if you have not a yet made > your way to the full report at http://www.invent.newmobility.org > (you?ll see it on the left menu) I hope this may encourage you to do > so. And as said many times, we are still most interested in having > your comments and critical remarks for improving. Kind thanks. Eric > Britton > > */From ?V?lib? - Paris City Bike Project > (http://www.invent.newmobility.org)/**/__/* > > > The street advertising end of things (Oops!) > > This is turning out to be one of the less comfortable building blocks > of this great project, and of which I think you as mayors and civic > leaders should be made fully aware. You risk possibly to find > yourselves in s similar situation in your city, so here is some early > news to help you out. > > At present the contractual arrangements signed by the city of Paris > provides a V?lib?/street advertising package. The present contract > runs for ten years and has been signed by both the city and the > contractor in full legal form. It is a binding contract. > > However we are seeing what I have to agree is a certain level of > predatory abuse by the advertizing-implementing partner, in terms of > (a) the number, intrusiveness and placement of the 1,628 panels to > which they have been given the right by the City of Paris, and (b) > (and more surprisingly) the very non-green energy consumption of the > new, large and very intrusive rolling displays. > > Advance notice of this was provided by cycling, pedestrian and public > space groups in Lyons after the V?lo-v project had started to mature. > However somehow this did not seem to make its way to the Paris team in > time to influence the contract signing with JCDecaux. Let?s have a > quick look at this situation since it is an important point for your > city if you are considering this option. > > Seen from the vantage of the advertiser, the contracting partner is > just doing its job: attracting the attention of the largest number of > people to the messages that their clients wish to bring to their > attention. That is on the one side. The other is that there is a level > of intrusiveness beyond which people are no longer free to enjoy their > city because of this plethora of too many, to blatant messages on too > many sides. Then too there are matters of public safety to be considered. > > Here are some of the claims that are being made by cycling, public > space and environmental groups ? all of whom, incidentally, are strong > supporters of the V?lib?? project other than for this one bit of abuse: > > * *Visual pollution* ? The large number of these panels, their > placement and their technology are creating unnecessary > intrusions and ?noise? in the daily lives of citizens > * *Size of the street displays* ? they are said to be too large > and obtrusive (the > * *Number of these displays* ? The protesting groups claim that > instead of the targeted 20% reduction in street displays > specified in the contract, when you take into account the > rolling displays, there is an increase of ?visual pollution? of > some 220% > * *Their physical placement* ? A number of the panels have been > placed obtrusively on sidewalks , thus impeding pedestrian > circulation and visibility > * *Energy waste* ? One of the public interest groups has > calculated that one of those motorized displays consumes as much > energy as an average household uses for its domestic appliances. > * *Safety*: Certainly if you are a driver or cyclist driving by > one of these strategically place, very visible large signs and > rotating displays, you are inevitably forced to an extent to > take your eye off the road. That after all is why it is there. > But this can be very hazardous as you can well imagine > > *Strategies:* > > This is a very complicated business, but in the last weeks we are > seeing at least a path for how Paris might be able to deal with this > threat ? and for you possibly important sink it suggest some > strategizing which you can anticipate and head off this potential > threat in advance. > > The public interest groups here in Paris are taking several approaches > about which you may find it useful to know. They are looking at three > things: > > 1. New and tighter guidelines for the displays > 2. The possibility of legally abrogating and/or changing the > conditions of the existing agreement. > 3. Separation of the public/private partnership into two contracts; > one for the service rendered (i.e., V?lib?) and the other for > the advertizing portion > > Let?s look briefly at these in order. > > *New display guidelines* : More stringent limitations on size and > placement. Complete suppression of all rolling and illuminated > displays, including any that use sound or odors to attract public > attention.. > > *Contract challenges: (*There is no discernable trail indicating how > this might be accomplished at this point.)** > > *Separation of the present agreement into two separate parts: one* > contract which specifies the public service to be provided (V?lib?) > with information on costs and performance (The present contract since > it subsumes both aspects into a single global package is thus opaque > in terms of costs (and benefits) and does not permit the city to have > full control of the economic aspects of the public service.) > > Denis Baupin, the city counselor in charge of all transport projects > in Paris has recently called this the ?municipalization? of what > should in his view (and in mine) be a fully public service. He has > argued in recent interviews that this will be important for other > mayors in Paris as they look to establish such service in their own > communities. And who can disagree with him on that? > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From operations at velomondial.net Mon Oct 8 05:34:37 2007 From: operations at velomondial.net (Pascal van den Noort) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:34:37 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> Message-ID: <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> Friends, This mass outing in Paris attacking the billboards on Friday night is na?ve. The way Parisians massively take up cycling, thanks to the Billboard Company and the Paris City Authorities, saving dramatic kilowatts of electricity and cleaning the air in Paris, outways the use of electricity in the billboard big time. It is amazing that overnight a whole city can take up cycling, more than any criticaster has achieved; in two months over 5,5 million times these bicycles were used. I think this populist campaign is unwarranted. It would be na?ve if we would condone this not very bright action. The car free movement as well as the pro environment movement should say NO to these silly initiatives of these Parisian protesters. Pascal J.W. van den Noort Velo Mondial http://velomondial.blogspot.com From edelman at greenidea.info Mon Oct 8 06:26:20 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Sun, 07 Oct 2007 23:26:20 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> Message-ID: <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> Hi Pascal, I suppose I agree with you about the energy issue. I agree with you that the cycling part of this programme is amazing. But if a programme like this is so important to a city why do deals have to made that create other types of pollution, which cannot be balanced against the energy reduction in transport? What about the content of the billboards themselves? I hope that every true colour in our rainbow of sustainability remembers what solidarity means. I hope that you also understand how closely tied together is mass advertising and mass automobilisation.... cars are a big part of this image war. BMW sponsoring VeloCity in Munich... four car companies sponsoring the biggest consortium of Central, Eastern and Southeastern European environmental foundations (one intermediary away from World Carfree Network)... Shell, pushing oil for personal cars all over the world while it supports BRT projects in a only couple of cities... and JCDecaux's support of cycling in a few European cities, but working against this in others ... these are all pacifiers that all-too-easily find willing mouths in which it seems the teeth are hiding. No deals, says this criticaster. - T Pascal van den Noort wrote: > > Friends, > > > > This mass outing in Paris attacking the billboards on Friday night is > na?ve. > > The way Parisians massively take up cycling, thanks to the Billboard > Company and the Paris City Authorities, saving dramatic kilowatts of > electricity and cleaning the air in Paris, outways the use of > electricity in the billboard big time. > > > > It is amazing that overnight a whole city can take up cycling, more > than any criticaster has achieved; in two months over 5,5 million > times these bicycles were used. > > > > I think this populist campaign is unwarranted. It would be na?ve if we > would condone this not very bright action. > > > > The car free movement as well as the pro environment movement should > say NO to these silly initiatives of these Parisian protesters. > > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > > Velo Mondial > > http://velomondial.blogspot.com > > > > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From operations at velomondial.net Mon Oct 8 06:43:35 2007 From: operations at velomondial.net (Pascal van den Noort) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:43:35 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> Message-ID: <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> Hi Todd, You will realize that I disagree with all the ideological stuff you wrote. I am happy that you agree with my energy saving analyses. I am curious about possible other possible positions. In the meantime I give you this Velo Mondial initiative: Amsterdam never used cycling and cycling planning as a means of cleaning the air in the city. European measures now oblige Amsterdam to act. With the introduction of a 'Main Network for Emission Free Traffic' , modes of transport that do not emit, like electric cars, bike taxis, Segways, roller skates, skeelers and bicycles, will get an improved and much wider space (8 meters) to move fast in the city. As a consequence car lanes will have to be taken out to allow for emission free lanes to be built....... Provided the City Council accepts these plans. Read more: http://velomondial.blogspot.com/2007/10/main-network-emission-free-traffic.h tml Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial Velo Mondial's Blog www.velomondial.net www.velo.info http://spicycles.velo.info operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory [mailto:edelman@greenidea.info] Verzonden: zondag 7 oktober 2007 23:26 Aan: Pascal van den Noort CC: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'Vojtech Toman'; petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; 'SFBIKE List List'; 'WCN list'; 'Michal Krivohlavek, Auto*Mat'; 'martin Marecek'; 'craig baldwin'; 'Ondrej Velek'; office@ecf.com Onderwerp: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Hi Pascal, I suppose I agree with you about the energy issue. I agree with you that the cycling part of this programme is amazing. But if a programme like this is so important to a city why do deals have to made that create other types of pollution, which cannot be balanced against the energy reduction in transport? What about the content of the billboards themselves? I hope that every true colour in our rainbow of sustainability remembers what solidarity means. I hope that you also understand how closely tied together is mass advertising and mass automobilisation.... cars are a big part of this image war. BMW sponsoring VeloCity in Munich... four car companies sponsoring the biggest consortium of Central, Eastern and Southeastern European environmental foundations (one intermediary away from World Carfree Network)... Shell, pushing oil for personal cars all over the world while it supports BRT projects in a only couple of cities... and JCDecaux's support of cycling in a few European cities, but working against this in others ... these are all pacifiers that all-too-easily find willing mouths in which it seems the teeth are hiding. No deals, says this criticaster. - T Pascal van den Noort wrote: > > Friends, > > > > This mass outing in Paris attacking the billboards on Friday night is > na?ve. > > The way Parisians massively take up cycling, thanks to the Billboard > Company and the Paris City Authorities, saving dramatic kilowatts of > electricity and cleaning the air in Paris, outways the use of > electricity in the billboard big time. > > > > It is amazing that overnight a whole city can take up cycling, more > than any criticaster has achieved; in two months over 5,5 million > times these bicycles were used. > > > > I think this populist campaign is unwarranted. It would be na?ve if we > would condone this not very bright action. > > > > The car free movement as well as the pro environment movement should > say NO to these silly initiatives of these Parisian protesters. > > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > > Velo Mondial > > http://velomondial.blogspot.com > > > > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net [carfree_network] list guidelines and unsubscribe information are found at http://www.worldcarfree.net/listservs/. Send messages for the entire list to carfree_network@lists.riseup.net. Send replies to individuals off-list. From eric.britton at free.fr Mon Oct 8 15:30:28 2007 From: eric.britton at free.fr (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 08:30:28 +0200 Subject: [sustran] cost to a city of a single say 3 km. car trip during the day? Message-ID: <001b01c80974$bd6a0f40$383e2dc0$@britton@free.fr> 1. What is the cost to a city - to your city? - of a single say 3 km. car trip during the day? a. For the usual mix: including explicit to the city costs (I guess that might be mainly road maintenance but there may be others that do not come immediately to mind) -- and also of course the environmental and other external costs. b. I understand that most of the costs will be in the latter categories - and I understand as well that these are not for the most part born by the city (as an accounting unit). c. But still if I am a responsible 21st century mayor, I would want to know that number because it would help me make a lot of good decisions. d. It might be handy to see these in a bit of detail, but it is really the bottom line number (and its explanation) that holds the key 2. It would be great if you could lend a hand with this. 3. And BTW, if I know this, then I can start to play with it in order to think about how the city might take an active role in financing a city bike project such as V?lib' or the one your mayor may be thinking about. Your good help in this will be your own reward, ;-) PS. Again, if the Greening of Paris series and the in-process V?lib' policy brief interest you at all, this is to let you know that the latter is being updated about twice a day and that you can find it on the left menu at http://www.invent.newmobility.org. As indicated earlier, comments, etc. are warmly welcome. It looks as if we will have this fully in the bag by the end of the week, but it already is a pretty good read (I am told). From operations at velomondial.net Mon Oct 8 16:55:12 2007 From: operations at velomondial.net (Pascal van den Noort) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 09:55:12 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <4709752F.40201@gmail.com> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> <4709752F.40201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <017501c80980$a1f68250$9600000a@MPBV> Dear Carlos, friends and colleagues, Projects like V?lib and other flagship projects function like flares; they attract the attention of cities all over the world and promote provisions for emission free traffic like cycling. These flagship projects are supportive of a massive movement that is growing fast now, with EU 2010 emission reduction demands. Cycling and other modes of emission free traffic are massively on the increase and V?lib is only an expression of that. Velo Mondial has been and is involved in NATCYP (first European Cycling Project), LUTR, Velo.Info, Spicycles and other projects. Other projects on the move are: Baltic Sea Cycling, UrBike , MoCuBa , Bypad, Eurovelo. These are just a few cities I can now mention that work on a variety of cycling projects in Europe: Sevilla (Spain), IId District of Budapest (Hungary), Dresden (Germany), Kielce (Poland), Florence (Italy), Frederiksberg (Denmark), Mesa Yitonia (Cyprus), Xanthi (Greece),Barcelona (Spain), Berlin (Germany), Bucharest (Romania), G?teborg (Sweden), Ploiesti (Romania), Rome (Italy), ?rebro (Sweden), Bad Doberan, (Germany), Drammen (Norway), Kalmar (Sweden), Klaipeda (Lithuania), Kl?tzer-Winkel (Germany), Sch?nberg (Germany), Link?ping (Sweden), Cesis (Latvia), Grevesm?hlen (Germany), Livani (Latvia), ADFC Rostock (Germany), Rehna (Germany), Siauliai (Lithuania), Jelgava (Latvia), V?ster?s (Sweden), Rostock (Germany). And then there are ? old? cycling cities like Amsterdam that is now considering a Main network of emission free routes. Velo Mondial sees these projects as grass roots projects where cities take the initiative; this movement of cities taking the lead should be supported and be seen as the ultimate way to go. This month, together with Spicycles and Velo.Info, Velo Mondial will launch a project where cities can fill in an online questionnaire; they will then be provided with their City Characteristic?s Report for emission free traffic as well as a report comparing their achievements with those of other cities. This will provide them the opportunity to learn from their peers. We will keep you of this and more cycling promotion initiatives via Velo Mondial's Blog Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial www.velomondial.net www.velo.info http://spicycles.velo.info operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone _____ Van: Carlos F. Pardo [mailto:carlosfpardo@gmail.com] Verzonden: maandag 8 oktober 2007 2:09 Aan: Pascal van den Noort CC: edelman@greenidea.info; 'craig baldwin'; 'martin Marecek'; petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'Vojtech Toman'; 'Michal Krivohlavek, Auto*Mat'; 'Ondrej Velek'; office@ecf.com; 'SFBIKE List List'; 'WCN list' Onderwerp: Re: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Hi, I would love to hear anyone's ideas on how this situation can be solved. That is, how could you develop a massive project such as Velib without funding from big organizations? If we found alternatives to this, I would definitely go with Todd's argument. Otherwise, we may just keep waiting for a holy and fully green funder that can provide the funds to develop a project like Velib. I would think that, if we put forward a criticism, it would also be useful to hear a counterproposal to solve that problem being criticized. However, I thank Todd for his eternal vigilance! Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org Pascal van den Noort wrote: Hi Todd, You will realize that I disagree with all the ideological stuff you wrote. I am happy that you agree with my energy saving analyses. I am curious about possible other possible positions. In the meantime I give you this Velo Mondial initiative: Amsterdam never used cycling and cycling planning as a means of cleaning the air in the city. European measures now oblige Amsterdam to act. With the introduction of a 'Main > Network for Emission Free Traffic' , modes of transport that do not emit, like electric cars, bike taxis, Segways, roller skates, skeelers and bicycles, will get an improved and much wider space (8 meters) to move fast in the city. As a consequence car lanes will have to be taken out to allow for emission free lanes to be built....... Provided the City Council accepts these plans. Read more: http://velomondial.blogspot.com/2007/10/main-network-emission-free-traffic.h tml Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial Velo Mondial's Blog www.velomondial.net www.velo.info http://spicycles.velo.info operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- Van: Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory [mailto:edelman@greenidea.info] Verzonden: zondag 7 oktober 2007 23:26 Aan: Pascal van den Noort CC: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'Vojtech Toman'; petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; 'SFBIKE List List'; 'WCN list'; 'Michal Krivohlavek, Auto*Mat'; 'martin Marecek'; 'craig baldwin'; 'Ondrej Velek'; office@ecf.com Onderwerp: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Hi Pascal, I suppose I agree with you about the energy issue. I agree with you that the cycling part of this programme is amazing. But if a programme like this is so important to a city why do deals have to made that create other types of pollution, which cannot be balanced against the energy reduction in transport? What about the content of the billboards themselves? I hope that every true colour in our rainbow of sustainability remembers what solidarity means. I hope that you also understand how closely tied together is mass advertising and mass automobilisation.... cars are a big part of this image war. BMW sponsoring VeloCity in Munich... four car companies sponsoring the biggest consortium of Central, Eastern and Southeastern European environmental foundations (one intermediary away from World Carfree Network)... Shell, pushing oil for personal cars all over the world while it supports BRT projects in a only couple of cities... and JCDecaux's support of cycling in a few European cities, but working against this in others ... these are all pacifiers that all-too-easily find willing mouths in which it seems the teeth are hiding. No deals, says this criticaster. - T Pascal van den Noort wrote: Friends, This mass outing in Paris attacking the billboards on Friday night is na?ve. The way Parisians massively take up cycling, thanks to the Billboard Company and the Paris City Authorities, saving dramatic kilowatts of electricity and cleaning the air in Paris, outways the use of electricity in the billboard big time. It is amazing that overnight a whole city can take up cycling, more than any criticaster has achieved; in two months over 5,5 million times these bicycles were used. I think this populist campaign is unwarranted. It would be na?ve if we would condone this not very bright action. The car free movement as well as the pro environment movement should say NO to these silly initiatives of these Parisian protesters. Pascal J.W. van den Noort Velo Mondial http://velomondial.blogspot.com From ianfiddies at hotmail.com Mon Oct 8 07:18:14 2007 From: ianfiddies at hotmail.com (Ian Fiddies) Date: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 22:18:14 +0000 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] RE: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> Message-ID: The bikes are OK, rideable but a bit heavy and I found, at least in Brussels that it was not always that easy to return them as the stations could be full. The reaction on the ground I met from other Brussels cyclists during the Critical Mass (I was riding one) was mainly negative to the JCDecaux project. The only concrete advantage as far as I can tell is the health benefit of more people cycling. Not wanting to sound negative but providing alterative means of transport appears to lead to more travelling rather than a reduction in car use. JCDeaux are guilty of Greenwash. I love the idea of free bikes for all but just like lunches? does the end justify the means? Ian Fiddies From: operations@velomondial.netTo: edelman@greenidea.infoCC: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; vojta.toman@volny.cz; petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; sfbike@lists.riseup.net; carfree_network@lists.riseup.net; michal.krivohlavek@auto-mat.cz; maremar@volny.cz; othercine@hotmail.com; ondrej.velek@ecn.cz; office@ecf.comDate: Sun, 7 Oct 2007 23:43:35 +0200Subject: [carfree_network] RE: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Hi Todd, You will realize that I disagree with all the ideological stuff you wrote. I am happy that you agree with my energy saving analyses. I am curious about possible other possible positions. In the meantime I give you this Velo Mondial initiative: Amsterdam never used cycling and cycling planning as a means of cleaning the air in the city. European measures now oblige Amsterdam to act. With the introduction of a 'Main Network for Emission Free Traffic' , modes of transport that do not emit, like electric cars, bike taxis, Segways, roller skates, skeelers and bicycles, will get an improved and much wider space (8 meters) to move fast in the city. As a consequence car lanes will have to be taken out to allow for emission free lanes to be built....... Provided the City Council accepts these plans. Read more: http://velomondial.blogspot.com/2007/10/main-network-emission-free-traffic.html Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial Velo Mondial's Blog www.velomondial.net www.velo.info http://spicycles.velo.info operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone -----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----Van: Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory [mailto:edelman@greenidea.info] Verzonden: zondag 7 oktober 2007 23:26Aan: Pascal van den NoortCC: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'Vojtech Toman'; petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; 'SFBIKE List List'; 'WCN list'; 'Michal Krivohlavek, Auto*Mat'; 'martin Marecek'; 'craig baldwin'; 'Ondrej Velek'; office@ecf.comOnderwerp: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles Hi Pascal, I suppose I agree with you about the energy issue. I agree with you that the cycling part of this programme is amazing. But if a programme like this is so important to a city why do deals have to made that create other types of pollution, which cannot be balanced against the energy reduction in transport? What about the content of the billboards themselves? I hope that every true colour in our rainbow of sustainability remembers what solidarity means. I hope that you also understand how closely tied together is mass advertising and mass automobilisation.... cars are a big part of this image war. BMW sponsoring VeloCity in Munich... four car companies sponsoring the biggest consortium of Central, Eastern and Southeastern European environmental foundations (one intermediary away from World Carfree Network)... Shell, pushing oil for personal cars all over the world while it supports BRT projects in a only couple of cities... and JCDecaux's support of cycling in a few European cities, but working against this in others ... these are all pacifiers that all-too-easily find willing mouths in which it seems the teeth are hiding. No deals, says this criticaster. - T Pascal van den Noort wrote: > > Friends, > > > > This mass outing in Paris attacking the billboards on Friday night is > na?ve. > > The way Parisians massively take up cycling, thanks to the Billboard > Company and the Paris City Authorities, saving dramatic kilowatts of > electricity and cleaning the air in Paris, outways the use of > electricity in the billboard big time. > > > > It is amazing that overnight a whole city can take up cycling, more > than any criticaster has achieved; in two months over 5,5 million > times these bicycles were used. > > > > I think this populist campaign is unwarranted. It would be na?ve if we > would condone this not very bright action. > > > > The car free movement as well as the pro environment movement should > say NO to these silly initiatives of these Parisian protesters. > > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > > Velo Mondial > > http://velomondial.blogspot.com > > > > > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net [carfree_network] list guidelines and unsubscribe information are found at http://www.worldcarfree.net/listservs/. Send messages for the entire list to carfree_network@lists.riseup.net. Send replies to individuals off-list. _________________________________________________________________ Connect to the next generation of MSN Messenger? http://imagine-msn.com/messenger/launch80/default.aspx?locale=en-us&source=wlmailtagline From jeroen.verhoeven at foeeurope.org Mon Oct 8 18:19:34 2007 From: jeroen.verhoeven at foeeurope.org (Jeroen Verhoeven) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:19:34 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] RE: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> Message-ID: <4709F626.3040608@foeeurope.org> Hi, I think Ian raised an important question, wheter or not the Paris cyclo initiative went to together with a decrease of the number of car traffic.Does anybody has data on that? Of course it is nice to have many more people cycling, but as Ian mentioned that DOES NOT necessarily means that there are less cars. In Brussels we see that politicians tend to become more willing to invest in cycle infrastructure, but they do not dare to install measures focussed to decrease the car traffic, while it is clear that there is no way around it, you can do everything you want to promote cycling, but there will be no real decrease in car traffic unless there are measures specifically designed to decrease car traffic. Of course the outcome of an evaluation of an initiative such as the cyclo initiatives in Paris depends on what you expect it to do, increasing cycling or decreasing car traffic. Cheers, Jeroen Pascal van den Noort wrote: > > Hi Todd, > > > > You will realize that I disagree with all the ideological stuff you > wrote. I am happy that you agree with my energy saving analyses. > > I am curious about possible other possible positions. > > > > In the meantime I give you this Velo Mondial initiative: > > Amsterdam never used cycling and cycling planning as a means of > cleaning the air in the city. European measures now oblige Amsterdam > to act. With the introduction of a 'Main Network for Emission Free > Traffic' > > , modes of transport that do not emit, like electric cars, bike taxis, > Segways, roller skates, skeelers and bicycles, will get an improved > and much wider space (8 meters) to move fast in the city. As a > consequence car lanes will have to be taken out to allow for emission > free lanes to be built....... Provided the City Council accepts these > plans. > > Read more: > http://velomondial.blogspot.com/2007/10/main-network-emission-free-traffic.html > > > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > > Executive Director Velo Mondial > > > > Velo Mondial's Blog > > > > > > > > www.velomondial.net > > www.velo.info > > http://spicycles.velo.info > > operations@velomondial.net > > +31206270675 landline > > +31627055688 mobile phone > > > > > > > > -----Oorspronkelijk bericht----- > Van: Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory [mailto:edelman@greenidea.info] > Verzonden: zondag 7 oktober 2007 23:26 > Aan: Pascal van den Noort > CC: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'Vojtech Toman'; > petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; 'SFBIKE List List'; 'WCN list'; 'Michal > Krivohlavek, Auto*Mat'; 'martin Marecek'; 'craig baldwin'; 'Ondrej > Velek'; office@ecf.com > Onderwerp: [carfree_network] Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles > > > > Hi Pascal, > > > > I suppose I agree with you about the energy issue. I agree with you that > > the cycling part of this programme is amazing. > > > > But if a programme like this is so important to a city why do deals have > > to made that create other types of pollution, which cannot be balanced > > against the energy reduction in transport? What about the content of the > > billboards themselves? > > > > I hope that every true colour in our rainbow of sustainability remembers > > what solidarity means. > > > > I hope that you also understand how closely tied together is mass > > advertising and mass automobilisation.... cars are a big part of this > > image war. BMW sponsoring VeloCity in Munich... four car companies > > sponsoring the biggest consortium of Central, Eastern and Southeastern > > European environmental foundations (one intermediary away from World > > Carfree Network)... Shell, pushing oil for personal cars all over the > > world while it supports BRT projects in a only couple of cities... and > > JCDecaux's support of cycling in a few European cities, but working > > against this in others > > ... these > > are all pacifiers that all-too-easily find willing mouths in which it > > seems the teeth are hiding. > > > > No deals, says this criticaster. > > > > - T > > > > Pascal van den Noort wrote: > > > > > > Friends, > > > > > > > > > > > > This mass outing in Paris attacking the billboards on Friday night is > > > na?ve. > > > > > > The way Parisians massively take up cycling, thanks to the Billboard > > > Company and the Paris City Authorities, saving dramatic kilowatts of > > > electricity and cleaning the air in Paris, outways the use of > > > electricity in the billboard big time. > > > > > > > > > > > > It is amazing that overnight a whole city can take up cycling, more > > > than any criticaster has achieved; in two months over 5,5 million > > > times these bicycles were used. > > > > > > > > > > > > I think this populist campaign is unwarranted. It would be na?ve if we > > > would condone this not very bright action. > > > > > > > > > > > > The car free movement as well as the pro environment movement should > > > say NO to these silly initiatives of these Parisian protesters. > > > > > > > > > > > > Pascal J.W. van den Noort > > > > > > Velo Mondial > > > > > > http://velomondial.blogspot.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > > -------------------------------------------- > > > > Todd Edelman > > Director > > Green Idea Factory > > > > Korunn? 72 > > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > > Czech Republic > > > > Skype: toddedelman > > ++420 605 915 970 > > ++420 222 517 832 > > > > edelman@greenidea.eu > > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > > www.worldcarfree.net > > > > > > > > [carfree_network] list guidelines and unsubscribe information are > found at http://www.worldcarfree.net/listservs/. Send messages for the > entire list to carfree_network@lists.riseup.net. Send replies to > individuals off-list. > -- Jeroen Verhoeven Car Fuel Efficiency Campaign Friends of the Earth Europe T: +32.2542.61.01 skype: jeroen_verhoeven (Brussels) Mobile: +32.477.46.31.81 From lwright at vivacities.org Mon Oct 8 21:40:19 2007 From: lwright at vivacities.org (Lloyd Wright) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 05:40:19 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Re: Re: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <4709752F.40201@gmail.com> References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info> <011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info> <013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> <4709752F.40201@gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071008054019.6zcy6l63z74sog48@www.vivacities.org> Well, there is another way. It is called public financing. It is ironic that Paris has principally used taxpayer revenues for some of the largest municipal roadway investments in the world, including massive spending on tunnels. Why does car-based infrastructure receive the benefit of general taxpayers while NMT-based infrastructure has to done through private means? By my calculation, the bicycles provided to date by the advertising firm represents an investment of approximately 1 million euros. This is equal to about 1 km of roadway construction for cars. It is equal to about 5% of the cost of 1 km of a roadway tunnel in Paris. Undoubtedly, Velib is a wonderful project, even with the associated visual pollution. However, I am sure we would agree that it probably would have been a better project if constructed through public funding without all the advertising. I recently saw an interesting quote: "In the future, the only difference between the wealthy and the poor will be the amount of advertising one is subjected to." Perhaps the future has arrived. Best, Lloyd Quoting "Carlos F. Pardo" : > Hi, > > I would love to hear anyone's ideas on how this situation can be > solved. That is, how could you develop a massive project such as > Velib without funding from big organizations? If we found > alternatives to this, I would definitely go with Todd's argument. > Otherwise, we may just keep waiting for a holy and fully green funder > that can provide the funds to develop a project like Velib. I would > think that, if we put forward a criticism, it would also be useful to > hear a counterproposal to solve that problem being criticized. > However, I thank Todd for his eternal vigilance! > > Best regards, > > Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - > Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of > 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) > 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org > From eric.britton at free.fr Mon Oct 8 23:35:24 2007 From: eric.britton at free.fr (eric.britton) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 16:35:24 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Paying for your City Bike Message-ID: <003f01c809b8$786ed120$694c7360$@britton@free.fr> It occurred to me that this from the in-process Greening of Paris ? Vol 1 V?lib? draft might also be of use in the context of this latest round of ?discussions? about V?lib? and $$$. Comments as always, etc. Eric Britton 3.7 Paying for your ?V?lib?? Lyons, Paris and other cities that have cut deals with advertizing companies who are today supplying them with high quality city bike systems against contractual access to public space have made an enormous contribution to the environment and life quality in their cities. But as has been seen, these are not the only ways to fund such a project. At the very least the first imperative is to learn from their experience (see above) and if you decide to go the street advertisement route, the best thing we can recommend is for you to create two transparent separate contracts for the two very different ends of the deal. It is my view that there can be no argument against this. Then there is the matter of the city paying for it, as it does for at least a portion of public transport costs and just about all of the cost involved in building and maintaining the road system and all the rest that supports it. Certainly the relatively low levels of cost involved for these projects relative to traditional investments in the sector should make this a relatively easy call. The key of course will be to have a firm grasp of not only the costs but also of the benefits to the city and its citizens. To get a handle on this, it should be possible in most cases to make some simple calculations drawing on available data and rule of thumb estimates for your city, so that you at least have a handle on the dimensions involved. Let me make a quick and dirty first calculation of how that might work based on a couple of conceptual figures. If, for example, only 1% of the daily trips of the full system in Paris (estimates to be on the order of 200,000-plus) were direct substitutes for taking say my car, and if we rough-guess the global external cost figure of a 3 km trip made during the day from cold start-up at ? 1.50, the net annual benefit to the city would be something on the order of ? 2 million. [1] But of course any such calculation would do well to go far beyond this very rough first step, because there are enormous other benefits to the community as will be clear. But for now let me leave you with the thought that if indeed you can come up with convincing numbers for these benefits, then this starts to make it clear that there may be other ways and other reasons for paying for this terrific public service. Certainly the bottom line of this is that you will do well to look into other financing routes before you make your final decision. _____ [1] We have invited a number of international colleagues to have a close look at this first crude cut, and will be factoring back into this section their additional information and refinements. From c_bradshaw at rogers.com Tue Oct 9 03:42:57 2007 From: c_bradshaw at rogers.com (Chris Bradshaw) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 14:42:57 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Re: Re: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris...from Bicycles References: <4706D6BD.6070907@greenidea.info><011001c80921$8d098040$9600000a@MPBV> <47094EFC.9000307@greenidea.info><013701c8092b$2d831c30$9600000a@MPBV> <4709752F.40201@gmail.com> <20071008054019.6zcy6l63z74sog48@www.vivacities.org> Message-ID: <077901c809db$14ec7df0$0202a8c0@acer56fb35423d> This information about billboard-advertising concessions from the City of Paris puts this othewise noble project into a different light. I thought it might have had some advertising _on_ the bicycles themselves. But, no, the promoters wanted far more. There is a real fight by advertisers to get more access to the urban visibility "spectrum." People using transit have long "enjoyed" benches at transit stop advertising covering the whole seat-back, or illuminated advertising on the oncoming-traffic sides of transit shelters in colder climes. The city must consider the trade-offs. It is not only about the energy used by the lighting of the billboards, but the amount of distraction that they cause, the might result in collisions, including the very people using the bikes. Also, the scale of the advertising implies that they are being viewed from afar, rather than being down at street level, close to pedestrians who need little illumination other than that provided by street lighting (although, street "grime" needs to be cleaned off the surface regularly). Such large-scale installations also cut out the visibility of the naturally lit sky. Chris Bradshaw, Ottawa From operations at velomondial.net Tue Oct 9 22:42:31 2007 From: operations at velomondial.net (Pascal van den Noort) Date: Tue, 9 Oct 2007 15:42:31 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Re: Re: RE: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles In-Reply-To: <115109.22554.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <115109.22554.qm@web50304.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <006d01c80a7a$4e044650$9600000a@MPBV> Big US Cities Invest in Bike Mobility SAN FRANCISCO, USA - Clear Channel Outdoor Inc. will decide this month to enter a proposed US$ 306 mn (? 201 mn) contract with the city of San Francisco. It will give the company advertising rights on transit shelters and would require the company to set up a bike-sharing program if the city opts for one. Like New York, Boston and Chicago, San Francisco paves the way to improve bike Pascal J.W. van den Noort Executive Director Velo Mondial Velo Mondial's Blog www.velomondial.net www.velo.info http://spicycles.velo.info operations@velomondial.net +31206270675 landline +31627055688 mobile phone _____ Van: Chris Parker [mailto:conductorchris@yahoo.com] Verzonden: maandag 8 oktober 2007 15:35 Aan: jeroen.verhoeven@foeeurope.org; operations@velomondial.net CC: edelman@greenidea.info; Global 'South' Sustainable Transport; Vojtech Toman; petr.stepanek@cityofprague.cz; SFBIKE List List; WCN list; Michal Krivohlavek, Auto*Mat; martin Marecek; craig baldwin; Ondrej Velek; office@ecf.com; ben bellekens Onderwerp: [carfree_network] Re: Re: RE: Re: RE: Pollution in Paris... from Bicycles << I think Ian raised an important question, wheter or not the Paris cyclo initiative went to together with a decrease of the number of car traffic.Does anybody has data on that? >> Yesterday I read an article which stated there had been a 4% drop in auto traffic in Paris since the bike program started this summer. That seems small, but it's pretty significant. (I forget if it was New York Times, Washington Post, Christian Science Monitor or a paper in London - I read them all) Christopher (from Vermont, but writing from New York City) From litman at vtpi.org Wed Oct 10 21:20:05 2007 From: litman at vtpi.org (Todd Alexander Litman) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 05:20:05 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: cost to a city of a single say 3 km. car trip during the day? In-Reply-To: <001b01c80974$bd6a0f40$383e2dc0$@britton@free.fr> References: <001b01c80974$bd6a0f40$383e2dc0$@britton@free.fr> Message-ID: <6.2.3.4.2.20071010050720.070e9748@mail.islandnet.com> Our report, "Transportation Cost And Benefit Analysis" (http://www.vtpi.org/tca ) provides a framework for calculating these costs, extensive references, estimates of these costs, and a spreadsheet to automate cost calculations. For information on municipal government borne costs, see: David Anderson and Gerard McCullough (2000), The Full Cost of Transportation in the Twin Cities Region, Center for Transportation Studies, University of Minnesota (www1.umn.edu/cts). PSRC (1996), The Costs of Transportation; Expenditures on Surface Transportation in the Central Puget Sound Region for 1995, Puget Sound Regional Council (www.psrc.org). David Urbanczyk and Jeanette Corlett (1995), The Cost of Driving in the Chicago Metropolitan Region, Metropolitan Planning Council (Chicago), Working Paper No. 2. ICLEI (1997), Uncovering Auto Subsidies: Calculating How Much Your Local Government Spends Subsidizing Cars, ICLEI (www.iclei.org/co2/auto/cars.htm). Martin Wachs (2003), Improving Efficiency and Equity in Transportation Finance, Brookings Institution (www.brookings.edu), Center on Urban and Metropolitan Policy (www.brookings.edu/es/urban/publications/wachstransportation.htm). Best wishes, -Todd Litman At 11:30 PM 10/7/2007, eric.britton wrote: >1. What is the cost to a city - to your city? - of a single say 3 km. >car trip during the day? > >a. For the usual mix: including explicit to the city costs (I guess >that might be mainly road maintenance but there may be others that do not >come immediately to mind) -- and also of course the environmental and other >external costs. > >b. I understand that most of the costs will be in the latter categories >- and I understand as well that these are not for the most part born by the >city (as an accounting unit). > >c. But still if I am a responsible 21st century mayor, I would want to >know that number because it would help me make a lot of good decisions. > >d. It might be handy to see these in a bit of detail, but it is really >the bottom line number (and its explanation) that holds the key > >2. It would be great if you could lend a hand with this. > >3. And BTW, if I know this, then I can start to play with it in order >to think about how the city might take an active role in financing a city >bike project such as V?lib' or the one your mayor may be thinking about. > > > >Your good help in this will be your own reward, > > > >;-) > > > >PS. Again, if the Greening of Paris series and the in-process V?lib' policy >brief interest you at all, this is to let you know that the latter is being >updated about twice a day and that you can find it on the left menu at >http://www.invent.newmobility.org. As indicated earlier, comments, etc. are >warmly welcome. It looks as if we will have this fully in the bag by the end >of the week, but it already is a pretty good read (I am told). > > Sincerely, Todd Alexander Litman Victoria Transport Policy Institute (www.vtpi.org) litman@vtpi.org Phone & Fax 250-360-1560 1250 Rudlin Street, Victoria, BC, V8V 3R7, CANADA ?Efficiency - Equity - Clarity? From lwright at vivacities.org Fri Oct 12 04:17:27 2007 From: lwright at vivacities.org (Lloyd Wright) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 14:17:27 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising Message-ID: <000401c80c3b$60bc5c20$6500a8c0@Nikita> Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of interest. http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 Outdoor advertising Visual pollution Oct 11th 2007 >From The Economist print edition Advertising firms fret over billboard bans ?THE ban on outdoor advertising in S?o Paulo is illegal and we will prove this,? says Paul Meyer, chief operating officer of America's Clear Channel Outdoor, the world's biggest outdoor-advertising company. The councillors of Brazil's biggest city passed an ordinance banning billboards last September, and Clear Channel is suing to have it overturned. Mr Meyer says his firm's lawyers are confident that it will be declared unconstitutional. ?The destruction of a business would certainly be against the law in America,? he adds. Yet bans on billboards exist in other parts of the world?even America. Vermont, Maine, Hawaii and Alaska all prohibit them, as do some 1,500 towns. In Europe, the Norwegian city of Bergen does the same and many others are imposing severe restrictions on billboards: the mayor of Moscow, for example, is about to introduce regulation to reduce their number and size. Even so, no big city had ever imposed a complete ban on billboards before S?o Paulo. The ?Clean City? law also bans ads on taxis and buses and imposes strict limits on shopfront signs. Previously, most of S?o Paulo's billboards had been erected without permission, although Clear Channel had spent some $2m to comply with pre-ban rules on outdoor ads. S?o Paulo is now ad-free. Many inhabitants of the metropolis of 11m think their city is prettier as a result. Inspired by its success, Rio de Janeiro, Bras?lia and Porto Alegre and even Buenos Aires, capital of Brazil's neighbour Argentina, are discussing measures to reduce or ban outdoor ads. ?This might only be the beginning,? warns Jean-Fran?ois Decaux, chairman of JCDecaux, the second-biggest outdoor advertising company. In his view local companies must work together to pull down illegal billboards. Otherwise many other cities, especially in emerging economies, will be tempted to follow the Brazilian example. For Robert Weissman of Commercial Alert, a lobby group, S?o Paulo's move is excellent news. Public space must not be abused for private commercial purposes, he says. Yet Mr Decaux argues that outdoor advertisers pay municipal authorities good money for the use of public space. They sometimes also provide cities with bus shelters, public loos and so forth in exchange for the right to place advertisements on them. This trade gives outdoor advertisers and local authorities a strong incentive to work with one another. Messrs Decaux and Meyer say they are in favour of good regulation and strong enforcement. They point out that the proliferation of illegal billboards is bad for business because it distracts attention from legal ones. And the more legal advertising there is, the more reluctant city governments will be to part with the revenue and services it brings. Regardless of the outcome of Clear Channel's lawsuit, S?o Paulo may well reintroduce advertising one day, for just those sorts of reasons. City governments, after all, are almost always short of cash?and it is no exception. Lloyd Wright Executive Director Viva Robles 653 y Av. Amazonas Oficinas 601-602-603 Quito Ecuador Tel. +593 2 255 1492 Mobile +593 9 577 6500 Fax +1 877 350 0910 Email lwright@vivacities.org Web www.vivacities.org "Viva...changing the world one street at a time." From whook at itdp.org Fri Oct 12 04:37:01 2007 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 15:37:01 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising In-Reply-To: <000401c80c3b$60bc5c20$6500a8c0@Nikita> Message-ID: <000001c80c3e$18eb0420$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> It has been a largely popular move in sao paulo, though i personally feel it is another example of what frequently happens in politics where instead of setting up some optimal and sensible regulatory structure the govt goes from one extreme of no regulation to another ezxtreme. same mayor may pull down trolleybus wires because of visual pollution but with less savory impacts on other types of pollution. Velib deal w Decaux supposedly cut down the total number of billboards by some percentage, making the remaining ones more lucrative. TransMillenio as an agency now earning half its money from add revenue. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Wright Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:17 PM To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'WCN list' Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of interest. http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 Outdoor advertising Visual pollution Oct 11th 2007 >From The Economist print edition Advertising firms fret over billboard bans ?THE ban on outdoor advertising in S?o Paulo is illegal and we will prove this,? says Paul Meyer, chief operating officer of America's Clear Channel Outdoor, the world's biggest outdoor-advertising company. The councillors of Brazil's biggest city passed an ordinance banning billboards last September, and Clear Channel is suing to have it overturned. Mr Meyer says his firm's lawyers are confident that it will be declared unconstitutional. ?The destruction of a business would certainly be against the law in America,? he adds. Yet bans on billboards exist in other parts of the world?even America. Vermont, Maine, Hawaii and Alaska all prohibit them, as do some 1,500 towns. In Europe, the Norwegian city of Bergen does the same and many others are imposing severe restrictions on billboards: the mayor of Moscow, for example, is about to introduce regulation to reduce their number and size. Even so, no big city had ever imposed a complete ban on billboards before S?o Paulo. The ?Clean City? law also bans ads on taxis and buses and imposes strict limits on shopfront signs. Previously, most of S?o Paulo's billboards had been erected without permission, although Clear Channel had spent some $2m to comply with pre-ban rules on outdoor ads. S?o Paulo is now ad-free. Many inhabitants of the metropolis of 11m think their city is prettier as a result. Inspired by its success, Rio de Janeiro, Bras?lia and Porto Alegre and even Buenos Aires, capital of Brazil's neighbour Argentina, are discussing measures to reduce or ban outdoor ads. ?This might only be the beginning,? warns Jean-Fran?ois Decaux, chairman of JCDecaux, the second-biggest outdoor advertising company. In his view local companies must work together to pull down illegal billboards. Otherwise many other cities, especially in emerging economies, will be tempted to follow the Brazilian example. For Robert Weissman of Commercial Alert, a lobby group, S?o Paulo's move is excellent news. Public space must not be abused for private commercial purposes, he says. Yet Mr Decaux argues that outdoor advertisers pay municipal authorities good money for the use of public space. They sometimes also provide cities with bus shelters, public loos and so forth in exchange for the right to place advertisements on them. This trade gives outdoor advertisers and local authorities a strong incentive to work with one another. Messrs Decaux and Meyer say they are in favour of good regulation and strong enforcement. They point out that the proliferation of illegal billboards is bad for business because it distracts attention from legal ones. And the more legal advertising there is, the more reluctant city governments will be to part with the revenue and services it brings. Regardless of the outcome of Clear Channel's lawsuit, S?o Paulo may well reintroduce advertising one day, for just those sorts of reasons. City governments, after all, are almost always short of cash?and it is no exception. Lloyd Wright Executive Director Viva Robles 653 y Av. Amazonas Oficinas 601-602-603 Quito Ecuador Tel. +593 2 255 1492 Mobile +593 9 577 6500 Fax +1 877 350 0910 Email lwright@vivacities.org Web www.vivacities.org "Viva...changing the world one street at a time." -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From edelman at greenidea.info Fri Oct 12 04:40:51 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 21:40:51 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: [carfree_network] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising In-Reply-To: <000401c80c3b$60bc5c20$6500a8c0@Nikita> References: <000401c80c3b$60bc5c20$6500a8c0@Nikita> Message-ID: <470E7C43.40807@greenidea.info> Thanks for posting this, Lloyd. The sense of entitlement of the COO of Clear Channel is so disgusting... "destruction of a business would certainly be against the law..." !! What a joke, and he made this statement in The Economist. Their backs are literally... up against a wall. - T p.s. Does someone have pictures of any JCDecaux or Clear Channel billboards in "Bikes for Billboards" towns which have anti-environmental content (aside from the visual blight)? It is also not too late to send in examples of self-damaging ads on public transport... UITP is having a conference about marketing in Spain in about a month and I am going to see if some of the samples I have collecting will be helpful to them.... Lloyd Wright wrote: > Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of > outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of interest. > > > http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 > > Outdoor advertising > > > Visual pollution > > Oct 11th 2007 > From /The Economist/ print edition > > > Advertising firms fret over billboard bans... [...] > -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From edelman at greenidea.info Fri Oct 12 05:14:57 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 22:14:57 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising In-Reply-To: <000001c80c3e$18eb0420$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> References: <000001c80c3e$18eb0420$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <470E8441.8000901@greenidea.info> Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > It has been a largely popular move in sao paulo, though i personally feel it > is another example of what frequently happens in politics where instead of > setting up some optimal and sensible regulatory structure the govt goes from > one extreme of no regulation to another ezxtreme. CAN you please tell me how a place free of advertising is "extreme"? > same mayor may pull down > trolleybus wires because of visual pollution but with less savory impacts on > other types of pollution. GOOD point, but there are solutions for getting electricity or power from things besides overhead lines, for trams... and buses. > Velib deal w Decaux supposedly cut down the total > number of billboards by some percentage, making the remaining ones more > lucrative. LESS of bad thing, if that is true. > TransMillenio as an agency now earning half its money from add > revenue. > PLEASE refer to Lloyd's email from the other day about public financing and don't forget to take your anti-pragmatism/pro-solidarity vitamins. - T p.s. Could someone confirm Lloyd's estimate of Velib costing EUR 1 million to install in Paris? That figure seems low, but, if true, it is about half of the price of ONE new tram or light-rail vehicle. p.p.s. For perspective, this is a Colombian Air Force Kfir fighter bought used from the Israeli Air Force. The price new was 4.5 million dollars. > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lloyd Wright > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:17 PM > To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'WCN list' > Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising > > Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of > outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of > interest. > > http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 > > Outdoor advertising > > > Visual pollution > > > Oct 11th 2007 > >From The Economist print edition > [...] -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From whook at itdp.org Fri Oct 12 05:46:34 2007 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:46:34 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising In-Reply-To: <470E8441.8000901@greenidea.info> Message-ID: <000901c80c47$d0ce6e20$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Well, I am all for knowing the dirty details, but its hard to get good things implemented, and easy to criticize. The velib program is perhaps the most important thing to happen in cycling in a long time. In nyc my local activist friends on the 'privy council' killed a similar Decaux deal in NYC swapping add kiosks for public toilets. Their campaign was hilarious, but naturally they (and others) killed the add kiosks and we still don?t have any decent public toilets. (i think there is one left in herald square). Is it impossible to out in decent public toilets without billboards? Of course? Does it happen? No. why? Because its probably a pain the bureaucratic ass and who wants to go through all the hassle unless there's some big carrot there? Probably you don?t have to have a lot of public billboards to have a good bike sharing program, but on the other hand, the fact remains that to date the largest scale bike sharing program in the world was linked to this advertising deal, and those projects not linked to similar deals did not reach the same scope and scale as quickly. Sometimes to make things successful the scale and scope of the project has to be bulked up to attract big firms able to do a big scale project. Should we be upset if Bechtel starts building BRT projects? I think, rather, it is the surest sign that we are winning. Personally, not all adds bother me equally. In the scheme of things, is this sort of visual pollution really something to get our knickers in a twist about? Was worth it to see Sting on a bike, no? What is New York's times square without the adds? Maybe I have kind of trashy taste, what can I say. I sort of go for that Blade Runner look. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:15 PM Cc: deboulonneurs.paris@no-log.org; Jana Krcm?rov?; Dave Holladay; 'WCN list'; 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport' Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > It has been a largely popular move in sao paulo, though i personally feel it > is another example of what frequently happens in politics where instead of > setting up some optimal and sensible regulatory structure the govt goes from > one extreme of no regulation to another ezxtreme. CAN you please tell me how a place free of advertising is "extreme"? > same mayor may pull down > trolleybus wires because of visual pollution but with less savory impacts on > other types of pollution. GOOD point, but there are solutions for getting electricity or power from things besides overhead lines, for trams... and buses. > Velib deal w Decaux supposedly cut down the total > number of billboards by some percentage, making the remaining ones more > lucrative. LESS of bad thing, if that is true. > TransMillenio as an agency now earning half its money from add > revenue. > PLEASE refer to Lloyd's email from the other day about public financing and don't forget to take your anti-pragmatism/pro-solidarity vitamins. - T p.s. Could someone confirm Lloyd's estimate of Velib costing EUR 1 million to install in Paris? That figure seems low, but, if true, it is about half of the price of ONE new tram or light-rail vehicle. p.p.s. For perspective, this is a Colombian Air Force Kfir fighter bought used from the Israeli Air Force. The price new was 4.5 million dollars. > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lloyd Wright > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:17 PM > To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'WCN list' > Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising > > Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of > outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of > interest. > > http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 > > Outdoor advertising > > > Visual pollution > > > Oct 11th 2007 > >From The Economist print edition > [...] -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From schipper at wri.org Fri Oct 12 05:47:19 2007 From: schipper at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 16:47:19 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising References: <000901c80c47$d0ce6e20$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C9BF072@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> When my father ran a campaign against pay toilets in Los Angeles in 1963/4, he had these slogans: "Get behind the movement" And "Wipe out pay toilets". He once went on a widely viewed local TV station and as he came on stage he asked the host "do you have change for 1 dollar" In short, these things have to be done with tongue in cheek. -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+schipper=wri.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Walter Hook Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 1:47 PM To: edelman@greenidea.info Cc: deboulonneurs.paris@no-log.org; 'Jana Krcm?rov?'; 'Dave Holladay'; 'WCN list'; 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport' Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising Well, I am all for knowing the dirty details, but its hard to get good things implemented, and easy to criticize. The velib program is perhaps the most important thing to happen in cycling in a long time. In nyc my local activist friends on the 'privy council' killed a similar Decaux deal in NYC swapping add kiosks for public toilets. Their campaign was hilarious, but naturally they (and others) killed the add kiosks and we still don't have any decent public toilets. (i think there is one left in herald square). Is it impossible to out in decent public toilets without billboards? Of course? Does it happen? No. why? Because its probably a pain the bureaucratic ass and who wants to go through all the hassle unless there's some big carrot there? Probably you don't have to have a lot of public billboards to have a good bike sharing program, but on the other hand, the fact remains that to date the largest scale bike sharing program in the world was linked to this advertising deal, and those projects not linked to similar deals did not reach the same scope and scale as quickly. Sometimes to make things successful the scale and scope of the project has to be bulked up to attract big firms able to do a big scale project. Should we be upset if Bechtel starts building BRT projects? I think, rather, it is the surest sign that we are winning. Personally, not all adds bother me equally. In the scheme of things, is this sort of visual pollution really something to get our knickers in a twist about? Was worth it to see Sting on a bike, no? What is New York's times square without the adds? Maybe I have kind of trashy taste, what can I say. I sort of go for that Blade Runner look. w -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 4:15 PM Cc: deboulonneurs.paris@no-log.org; Jana Krcm?rov?; Dave Holladay; 'WCN list'; 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport' Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising Hi Walter, Walter Hook wrote: > It has been a largely popular move in sao paulo, though i personally feel it > is another example of what frequently happens in politics where instead of > setting up some optimal and sensible regulatory structure the govt goes from > one extreme of no regulation to another ezxtreme. CAN you please tell me how a place free of advertising is "extreme"? > same mayor may pull down > trolleybus wires because of visual pollution but with less savory impacts on > other types of pollution. GOOD point, but there are solutions for getting electricity or power from things besides overhead lines, for trams... and buses. > Velib deal w Decaux supposedly cut down the total > number of billboards by some percentage, making the remaining ones more > lucrative. LESS of bad thing, if that is true. > TransMillenio as an agency now earning half its money from add > revenue. > PLEASE refer to Lloyd's email from the other day about public financing and don't forget to take your anti-pragmatism/pro-solidarity vitamins. - T p.s. Could someone confirm Lloyd's estimate of Velib costing EUR 1 million to install in Paris? That figure seems low, but, if true, it is about half of the price of ONE new tram or light-rail vehicle. p.p.s. For perspective, this is a Colombian Air Force Kfir fighter bought used from the Israeli Air Force. The price new was 4.5 million dollars. > -----Original Message----- > From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org > [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf > Of Lloyd Wright > Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:17 PM > To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'WCN list' > Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising > > Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of > outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of > interest. > > http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 > > Outdoor advertising > > > Visual pollution > > > Oct 11th 2007 > >From The Economist print edition > [...] -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From bruun at seas.upenn.edu Fri Oct 12 06:12:05 2007 From: bruun at seas.upenn.edu (bruun at seas.upenn.edu) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 17:12:05 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo trolley catenary In-Reply-To: <470E8441.8000901@greenidea.info> References: <000001c80c3e$18eb0420$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <470E8441.8000901@greenidea.info> Message-ID: <20071011171205.5u32zgn8gkg440os@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> Todd: There aren't really options to overhead catenary for long routes. One can install batteries or an ICE for use for short distances. Concepts involving ground pickup aren't proven reliable yet, especially in snow. As far as the visual blight from trolley catenary goes, it is minimal. There can sometimes be some clutter at an intersection where lines cross and turns are made. There is also a good side to the visibility of catenary -- it adds a sense of permanence just like rails, and it also indicates which roads have frequent service. Eric Bruun Quoting "Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory" : > Hi Walter, > > Walter Hook wrote: >> It has been a largely popular move in sao paulo, though i personally feel it >> is another example of what frequently happens in politics where instead of >> setting up some optimal and sensible regulatory structure the govt goes from >> one extreme of no regulation to another ezxtreme. > CAN you please tell me how a place free of advertising is "extreme"? > >> same mayor may pull down >> trolleybus wires because of visual pollution but with less savory impacts on >> other types of pollution. > GOOD point, but there are solutions for getting electricity or power > from things besides overhead lines, for trams... and buses. >> Velib deal w Decaux supposedly cut down the total >> number of billboards by some percentage, making the remaining ones more >> lucrative. > LESS of bad thing, if that is true. > >> TransMillenio as an agency now earning half its money from add >> revenue. >> > > PLEASE refer to Lloyd's email from the other day about public financing > and don't forget to take your anti-pragmatism/pro-solidarity vitamins. > > - T > > p.s. Could someone confirm Lloyd's estimate of Velib costing EUR 1 > million to install in Paris? That figure seems low, but, if true, it is > about half of the price of ONE new tram or light-rail vehicle. > > p.p.s. For perspective, this > is a Colombian > Air Force Kfir fighter bought used from the Israeli Air Force. The price > new was 4.5 million dollars. >> -----Original Message----- >> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf >> Of Lloyd Wright >> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:17 PM >> To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'WCN list' >> Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising >> >> Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of >> outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of >> interest. >> >> http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 >> >> Outdoor advertising >> >> >> Visual pollution >> >> >> Oct 11th 2007 >> >From The Economist print edition >> > [...] > > -- > -------------------------------------------- > > Todd Edelman > Director > Green Idea Factory > > Korunn? 72 > CZ-10100 Praha 10 > Czech Republic > > Skype: toddedelman > ++420 605 915 970 > ++420 222 517 832 > > edelman@greenidea.eu > http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ > www.flickr.com/photos/edelman > > Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network > www.worldcarfree.net > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss > to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. > The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot > post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site > makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing > countries (the 'Global South'). > > From edelman at greenidea.info Fri Oct 12 06:26:11 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 23:26:11 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Re: Sao Paulo trolley catenary In-Reply-To: <20071011171205.5u32zgn8gkg440os@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> References: <000001c80c3e$18eb0420$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <470E8441.8000901@greenidea.info> <20071011171205.5u32zgn8gkg440os@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <470E94F3.1080606@greenidea.info> Hi, bruun@seas.upenn.edu wrote: > Todd: > > There aren't really options to overhead catenary for long routes. RIGHT, for emission-free transport. > One > can install batteries or an ICE for use for short distances. I AM sorry, what's ICE? Batteries and ultracapacitors are having some success as far as I understand.... in order to eliminate overhead lines in small historical areas. > Concepts > involving ground pickup aren't proven reliable yet, especially in snow. > RIGHT > As far as the visual blight from trolley catenary goes, it is minimal. > IN Prague the visual blight from caternary for trams gets pretty intense sometimes... but at least it has a useful purpose unlike some other blights. > There can sometimes be some clutter at an intersection where lines > cross and turns are made. There is also a good side to the visibility > of catenary -- it adds a sense of permanence just like rails, and it > also indicates which roads have frequent service. > Seriously, things are getting more flexible (batteries, ultracaps, hybrid systems with diesel or especially gas generator sets) and I think prices will go down and quality will go up. Batteries might start to become standard in trams - some trolley buses have small engines to get through electrified areas - which will be a benefit for aesthetic reasons and also give maintenance people more flexibility to repair overhead lines in the middle of the day, etc. Thanks, T > Eric Bruun > > > Quoting "Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory" : > > >> Hi Walter, >> >> Walter Hook wrote: >> >>> It has been a largely popular move in sao paulo, though i personally feel it >>> is another example of what frequently happens in politics where instead of >>> setting up some optimal and sensible regulatory structure the govt goes from >>> one extreme of no regulation to another ezxtreme. >>> >> CAN you please tell me how a place free of advertising is "extreme"? >> >> >>> same mayor may pull down >>> trolleybus wires because of visual pollution but with less savory impacts on >>> other types of pollution. >>> >> GOOD point, but there are solutions for getting electricity or power >> from things besides overhead lines, for trams... and buses. >> >>> Velib deal w Decaux supposedly cut down the total >>> number of billboards by some percentage, making the remaining ones more >>> lucrative. >>> >> LESS of bad thing, if that is true. >> >> >>> TransMillenio as an agency now earning half its money from add >>> revenue. >>> >>> >> PLEASE refer to Lloyd's email from the other day about public financing >> and don't forget to take your anti-pragmatism/pro-solidarity vitamins. >> >> - T >> >> p.s. Could someone confirm Lloyd's estimate of Velib costing EUR 1 >> million to install in Paris? That figure seems low, but, if true, it is >> about half of the price of ONE new tram or light-rail vehicle. >> >> p.p.s. For perspective, this >> is a Colombian >> Air Force Kfir fighter bought used from the Israeli Air Force. The price >> new was 4.5 million dollars. >> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org >>> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf >>> Of Lloyd Wright >>> Sent: Thursday, October 11, 2007 3:17 PM >>> To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport'; 'WCN list' >>> Subject: [sustran] Sao Paulo bans outdoor advertising >>> >>> Given the recent exchange regarding Paris Velib's proliferation of >>> outdoor advertising, I thought the following article might be of >>> interest. >>> >>> http://www.economist.com/business/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9963268 >>> >>> Outdoor advertising >>> >>> >>> Visual pollution >>> >>> >>> Oct 11th 2007 >>> >From The Economist print edition >>> >>> >> [...] >> >> -- >> -------------------------------------------- >> >> Todd Edelman >> Director >> Green Idea Factory >> >> Korunn? 72 >> CZ-10100 Praha 10 >> Czech Republic >> >> Skype: toddedelman >> ++420 605 915 970 >> ++420 222 517 832 >> >> edelman@greenidea.eu >> http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ >> www.flickr.com/photos/edelman >> >> Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network >> www.worldcarfree.net >> >> -------------------------------------------------------- >> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. >> >> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss >> to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. >> The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot >> post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site >> makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. >> >> ================================================================ >> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing >> countries (the 'Global South'). >> >> >> > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From tr_saranathan at hotmail.com Fri Oct 12 09:37:51 2007 From: tr_saranathan at hotmail.com (tr_saranathan) Date: 11 Oct 2007 17:37:51 -0700 Subject: [sustran] Do we like the same books? Message-ID: <20071012003821.8C1062DE74@mx-list.jca.ne.jp> I just joined Shelfari to connect with other book lovers. Come see the books I love and see if we have any in common. Then pick my next book so I can keep on reading. Click below to join my group of friends on Shelfari! http://www.shelfari.com/Register.aspx?ActivityId=25074718&InvitationCode=df51f080-28c9-4f6b-b2c9-21ac884431eb tr_saranathan Shelfari is a free site that lets you share book ratings and reviews with friends and meet people who have similar tastes in books. It also lets you build an online bookshelf, join book clubs, and get good book recommendations from friends. You should check it out. -------- You have received this email because tr_saranathan (tr_saranathan@hotmail.com) directly invited you to join his/her community on Shelfari. It is against Shelfari's policies to invite people who you don't know directly. Follow this link (http://www.shelfari.com/actions/emailoptout.aspx?email=sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org&activityid=25074718) to prevent future invitations to this address. If you believe you do not know this person, you may view (http://www.shelfari.com/trsaranathan) his/her Shelfari page or report him/her in our feedback (http://www.shelfari.com/Feedback.aspx) section. Shelfari, 616 1st Ave #300, Seattle, WA 98104 From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Oct 12 17:11:55 2007 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:11:55 +0200 Subject: [sustran] cost to a city of a single say 3 km. car trip during the day? In-Reply-To: <1e1891d10710110342v408c6a5o8e84da5cf8d4eaca@mail.gmail.com> References: <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C96FC89@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <46E2E1971BCEC1459149FBB1A4B4342C9BE7EC@wricsex029330.WRI.CRM.Local> <1e1891d10710110342v408c6a5o8e84da5cf8d4eaca@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <00e601c80ca7$ca5551c0$5efff540$@britton@ecoplan.org> Thanks so much Alper. What I am scratching for is some indication of the "total cost" (including externalities) of a sample 3 km car trip made in a city center in the middle of the day - and sure with a cold start. I realize that there are a lot variables than need to be figured in (hey, people have been working on this in various ways for more than three decades, as Todd Littman's note on this points out so usefully), but what I am looking for is one or more ballpark figures. Or some kind of qualified range. Here is what we can standardize to, to get us going I hope: 3 km., cold start, average speed (say 10 kph or so, which might give us time for an "average" parking hunt). In my mind's eye the whole thing will take on the order of a quarter hour, one way of course. Age, make and maintenance of car, meteorological conditions, altitude, driver skills, city size, traffic conditions, and other such stuff will obviously influence our number(s) - but it must be possible to be sensible about this and use available data without someone having to do another PhD. Here's my rough guestimate this morning to get the ball rolling on this: on the order of a.5 Euros or call it two dollars. Not only that, I think this may prove to be a low estimate, but maybe with more input from all of you who know better we can nail this one down. It's an important number! Eric Britton PS. I know all of you know this - but the single most important blow we can strike for sustainability and the planet is a carbon tax. Now, I am not working on that (since I have chosen to concentrate my limited time and resources our narrower patch), but that's the bottom line. Believe it! From: Alper Unal [mailto:alper.unal@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, 11 October 2007 12:42 To: Lee Schipper Cc: eric.britton; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com; john.shaw@dot.state.wi.us Subject: [Norton AntiSpam] Re: [NewMobilityCafe] cost to a city of a single say 3 km. car trip during t he day? Lee, I am not sure if I understand the question, are we comparing a 3km trip with 10km trip? Are we comparing a 3km trip with cold-start versus a 10km trip without a cold-start? For cold-start emissions, as you know it varies a lot depending on ambient temperature, driver aggressiveness (letting the vehicle warm up vs. trying to warm the engine up hitting the gas as they do it in Turkey!), as well as the condition of the catalyst (we have seen a lot of dead catalysts in Istanbul which were 2006 model year!). I did look at some of our measurements and the measurements say that cold -start (which is generally assumed to be the first 200 seconds) might emit about 20-30 times higher HC and CO, twice higher NOX and 30-40 % higher CO2 (all in g/km basis). However, as you know generally cold-start emissions are given as grams/200 seconds rather than grams/km since vehicle might be idling during this period. Does this answer your question? Best, Alper From eric.britton at ecoplan.org Fri Oct 12 17:49:49 2007 From: eric.britton at ecoplan.org (Eric Britton) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:49:49 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 References: <000001c80c3e$18eb0420$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <470E8441.8000901@greenidea.info> <20071011171205.5u32zgn8gkg440os@webmail.seas.upenn.edu> Message-ID: <00fb01c80cac$df031ad0$9d095070$@britton@ecoplan.org> A few more pieces of the Euro puzzle from sent on by our friend Ronan taken from recent articles in the financial press here. I rough translate and summarize for you if necessary. 1. From La Tribune - http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/13082007/155/velib-un-pari-risque-pour-jcdecaux.html JCD investing 90 million Euros (high figure to date), covering all project costs but gaining access to those 1600 on-street (sidewalk actually) panels. Penalties for underperformance on contact specs. JCD taking a risk/potential bath on the margins, cause they got to do it. 2. From http://www.marchespublics.net/actualite/edito.php?id=1256 ? The usual V?lib? numbers + guarantee of 285 full time job-equivalents + all costs for system to be covered by JCD for the ten years of the contract. + City of Paris to get all income from bikes + 3.5 Euros paid to city by JCD year ? and all that against 1600 public advertising spaces, which someone has figured should get them on the order of 60 million Euros/year for the contract period. And all that with a system of penalties for failing to meet performance goals and incentives for doing better. The author of that piece -- Herv? Huguet, Citia, cabinet de conseil en achat public ? makes the point that in his view the margins are very thin but that it?s a great showcase for KCD (which for sure it is). That?s one vantage of our ballpark. But it?s really the benefits side that holds the bottom line (that plus the necessary separation of the deals into separate 2 contracts). Which is where I need some help from you. And not in our enthusiasm for a kinder better world to kill the at least carbon-lite goose of course (as Walter Hook so wisely reminds us). Eric Britton From edelman at greenidea.info Fri Oct 12 18:08:23 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:08:23 +0200 Subject: [sustran] Anti-bus ad on bus shelter in South Africa Message-ID: <470F3987.5000303@greenidea.info> Hi, See: If someone knows if these shelters are owned by public transport company, subcontractor or "partner" (e.g. JCDecaux, etc.) please let me know. I realise that situation may have changed since 2002. Thanks, T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic Skype: toddedelman ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 edelman@greenidea.eu http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/ www.flickr.com/photos/edelman Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From lwright at vivacities.org Fri Oct 12 23:41:03 2007 From: lwright at vivacities.org (Lloyd Wright) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 09:41:03 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 In-Reply-To: <00fb01c80cac$df031ad0$9d095070$@britton@ecoplan.org> Message-ID: <002601c80cdd$eb807830$6500a8c0@Nikita> It would be interesting to know how much of the 90 million euros is for the system infrastructure and management as opposed to the cost of the advertising. I would imagine the advertising side has both infrastructure, management, and marketing (cost of attracting and retaining clients) components. It would be important to separate out the bicycle system from the advertising business to understand the costs. Even at 200 euros per bike, 20,000 bicycles only comes to 4 million euros. The bicycles should have a life of perhaps 7 to 10 years. Thus, on an amortised basis, the bikes are only about 400,000 euros per year. Certainly, the stations are an infrastructure investment (but again with probably a long life) and there are annual management costs. But it is difficult to see how it comes to 90 million euros. Thus, I suspect that the costs of advertising component must be huge. Also, I suspect that JCD has an incentive to inflate the numbers as much as possible to claim the goodwill of their investment. Best, Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: Eric Britton [mailto:eric.britton@ecoplan.org] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:50 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Subject: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 A few more pieces of the Euro puzzle from sent on by our friend Ronan taken from recent articles in the financial press here. I rough translate and summarize for you if necessary. 1. From La Tribune - http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/13082007/155/velib-un-pari-risque-pour-jcdecaux. html JCD investing 90 million Euros (high figure to date), covering all project costs but gaining access to those 1600 on-street (sidewalk actually) panels. Penalties for underperformance on contact specs. JCD taking a risk/potential bath on the margins, cause they got to do it. 2. From http://www.marchespublics.net/actualite/edito.php?id=1256 ? The usual V?lib? numbers + guarantee of 285 full time job-equivalents + all costs for system to be covered by JCD for the ten years of the contract. + City of Paris to get all income from bikes + 3.5 Euros paid to city by JCD year ? and all that against 1600 public advertising spaces, which someone has figured should get them on the order of 60 million Euros/year for the contract period. And all that with a system of penalties for failing to meet performance goals and incentives for doing better. The author of that piece -- Herv? Huguet, Citia, cabinet de conseil en achat public ? makes the point that in his view the margins are very thin but that it?s a great showcase for KCD (which for sure it is). That?s one vantage of our ballpark. But it?s really the benefits side that holds the bottom line (that plus the necessary separation of the deals into separate 2 contracts). Which is where I need some help from you. And not in our enthusiasm for a kinder better world to kill the at least carbon-lite goose of course (as Walter Hook so wisely reminds us). Eric Britton From whook at itdp.org Fri Oct 12 23:46:58 2007 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 10:46:58 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 In-Reply-To: <002601c80cdd$eb807830$6500a8c0@Nikita> Message-ID: <003c01c80cde$bf7889c0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> We read somewhere that the bikes cost something like 3000 euros, which seems impossible , and we could not confirm it. There is some fancy electronic gadgetry inside them to signal mechanical failures, etc, but how could they be so expensive? Anyone got any intel on this? walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Wright Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 10:41 AM To: eric.britton@ecoplan.org; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 It would be interesting to know how much of the 90 million euros is for the system infrastructure and management as opposed to the cost of the advertising. I would imagine the advertising side has both infrastructure, management, and marketing (cost of attracting and retaining clients) components. It would be important to separate out the bicycle system from the advertising business to understand the costs. Even at 200 euros per bike, 20,000 bicycles only comes to 4 million euros. The bicycles should have a life of perhaps 7 to 10 years. Thus, on an amortised basis, the bikes are only about 400,000 euros per year. Certainly, the stations are an infrastructure investment (but again with probably a long life) and there are annual management costs. But it is difficult to see how it comes to 90 million euros. Thus, I suspect that the costs of advertising component must be huge. Also, I suspect that JCD has an incentive to inflate the numbers as much as possible to claim the goodwill of their investment. Best, Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: Eric Britton [mailto:eric.britton@ecoplan.org] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:50 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Subject: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 A few more pieces of the Euro puzzle from sent on by our friend Ronan taken from recent articles in the financial press here. I rough translate and summarize for you if necessary. 1. From La Tribune - http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/13082007/155/velib-un-pari-risque-pour-jcdecaux. html JCD investing 90 million Euros (high figure to date), covering all project costs but gaining access to those 1600 on-street (sidewalk actually) panels. Penalties for underperformance on contact specs. JCD taking a risk/potential bath on the margins, cause they got to do it. 2. From http://www.marchespublics.net/actualite/edito.php?id=1256 ? The usual V?lib? numbers + guarantee of 285 full time job-equivalents + all costs for system to be covered by JCD for the ten years of the contract. + City of Paris to get all income from bikes + 3.5 Euros paid to city by JCD year ? and all that against 1600 public advertising spaces, which someone has figured should get them on the order of 60 million Euros/year for the contract period. And all that with a system of penalties for failing to meet performance goals and incentives for doing better. The author of that piece -- Herv? Huguet, Citia, cabinet de conseil en achat public ? makes the point that in his view the margins are very thin but that it?s a great showcase for KCD (which for sure it is). That?s one vantage of our ballpark. But it?s really the benefits side that holds the bottom line (that plus the necessary separation of the deals into separate 2 contracts). Which is where I need some help from you. And not in our enthusiasm for a kinder better world to kill the at least carbon-lite goose of course (as Walter Hook so wisely reminds us). Eric Britton -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From info at autofrei-wohnen.de Sat Oct 13 00:57:28 2007 From: info at autofrei-wohnen.de (Autofrei Wohnen) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:57:28 +0200 Subject: [sustran] "cost of about $1, 300 apiece" // Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 References: <003c01c80cde$bf7889c0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <023101c80ce8$c61e0020$0100a8c0@Markus> Dear Walter, in this german wikipedia http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrradverleih#Paris I found this information: "Die Fahrräder sind aus ungarischer Produktion (Marke Mercier) und kosten 1.300 Dollar pro Stück." = The Bikes are from hungarian production (Mercier Company) (1) and cost 1,300 Dollar each (2). Sources: (1) in german: http://trapa.twoday.net/stories/3521778/comment (2) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/03/23/AR2007032301753.html ("... JCDecaux will provide all of the bikes (at a cost of about $1,300 apiece) and build the pickup/drop-off stations. ...") interesting article (March 24, 2007; Page A10) with more details * My first thought was the one Lloyd expressed, "why don`t they use the taxes ?! They use taxes for everything else. Why not for this programme ???" This discussion was really interesting (thank you), and I understand it this way: In the beginning of something "new" politicians are unsure if they make the point with it. so they test it. They think: "If it fails, I can say to the people: `It was not financed with your taxes, it was a separate thing.´" I think, the anger comes from that point: Why is everything "new-sustainable-etc-pp" always only an extra / separated "programme", why is that not the conventional standard ? ... However, I think, like you and Pascal, it is good that they started it, with whatever money, in the meaning of "one small step towards more carfree spaces". But, nevertheless, I like Todd`s "threatened by convenience and pragmatism" in his blog ... we need to keep this in mind, but don`t let us overwhelme by this attitude ... best wishes from Berlin, Markus www.autofrei-wohnen.de/homeEngl.html ----- Original Message ----- From: "Walter Hook" To: ; ; ; Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 4:46 PM Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 We read somewhere that the bikes cost something like 3000 euros, which seems impossible , and we could not confirm it. There is some fancy electronic gadgetry inside them to signal mechanical failures, etc, but how could they be so expensive? Anyone got any intel on this? walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lloyd Wright Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 10:41 AM To: eric.britton@ecoplan.org; sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Subject: [sustran] Re: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 It would be interesting to know how much of the 90 million euros is for the system infrastructure and management as opposed to the cost of the advertising. I would imagine the advertising side has both infrastructure, management, and marketing (cost of attracting and retaining clients) components. It would be important to separate out the bicycle system from the advertising business to understand the costs. Even at 200 euros per bike, 20,000 bicycles only comes to 4 million euros. The bicycles should have a life of perhaps 7 to 10 years. Thus, on an amortised basis, the bikes are only about 400,000 euros per year. Certainly, the stations are an infrastructure investment (but again with probably a long life) and there are annual management costs. But it is difficult to see how it comes to 90 million euros. Thus, I suspect that the costs of advertising component must be huge. Also, I suspect that JCD has an incentive to inflate the numbers as much as possible to claim the goodwill of their investment. Best, Lloyd -----Original Message----- From: Eric Britton [mailto:eric.britton@ecoplan.org] Sent: Friday, October 12, 2007 3:50 AM To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org; NewMobilityCafe@yahoogroups.com Subject: Velib' costs and benefits - Note 2 A few more pieces of the Euro puzzle from sent on by our friend Ronan taken from recent articles in the financial press here. I rough translate and summarize for you if necessary. 1. From La Tribune - http://fr.biz.yahoo.com/13082007/155/velib-un-pari-risque-pour-jcdecaux. html JCD investing 90 million Euros (high figure to date), covering all project costs but gaining access to those 1600 on-street (sidewalk actually) panels. Penalties for underperformance on contact specs. JCD taking a risk/potential bath on the margins, cause they got to do it. 2. From http://www.marchespublics.net/actualite/edito.php?id=1256 - The usual Vélib' numbers + guarantee of 285 full time job-equivalents + all costs for system to be covered by JCD for the ten years of the contract. + City of Paris to get all income from bikes + 3.5 Euros paid to city by JCD year - and all that against 1600 public advertising spaces, which someone has figured should get them on the order of 60 million Euros/year for the contract period. And all that with a system of penalties for failing to meet performance goals and incentives for doing better. The author of that piece -- Hervé Huguet, Citia, cabinet de conseil en achat public - makes the point that in his view the margins are very thin but that it's a great showcase for KCD (which for sure it is). That's one vantage of our ballpark. But it's really the benefits side that holds the bottom line (that plus the necessary separation of the deals into separate 2 contracts). Which is where I need some help from you. And not in our enthusiasm for a kinder better world to kill the at least carbon-lite goose of course (as Walter Hook so wisely reminds us). Eric Britton -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a