[sustran] Re: "In my view you have no place asking a question likethis since Shell "

[transportvision ibc]

Dear all

I fully agree with Paul's wise words as to make a difference between content
of opinion about our central theme (Urban traffic and transport in the
South)and the motives or limits of possibilities of certain organizations.

But I have learned something in my 25 years of working in promotion of
cycling: you can work with many people and not always get what you want. Or
you work at a more individual base and have better control over the content.
Both possibilities have pro's and cons. The only important thing is to
respect both possibilities and (hopefully) see that "there are more ways to
Rome"
Let's go back to work.

Best regards

Ton Daggers
IBC MOVILIZATION

-----Oorspronkelijk bericht-----
Van: sustran-discuss-bounces+daggers=knoware.nl at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+daggers=knoware.nl at list.jca.apc.org] Namens
Paul Barter
Verzonden: donderdag 22 november 2007 4:02
Aan: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
CC: edelman at greenidea.eu
Onderwerp: [sustran] Re: "In my view you have no place asking a question
likethis since Shell "

Dear all (and cc'ing to Todd E.)

I am speaking as one of the two managers of sustran-discuss here.

Todd, you are not (yet) banned or even suspended. You are welcome to return
and I hope you do.  Eric, as an active and involved member, was just
expressing a robust opinion about your post and the consequences that he
thinks would be appropriate. For now, I would prefer a polite warning and a
second chance.


Here is the polite warning:

The issue here is ad-hominem attacks ('personal attacks'). Questioning
someone's credibility through their associations IS a personal attack. The
view expressed by Lee about Shanghai's trends contained nothing at all that
Todd disagreed with apparently, so the attack seemed to be purely on the
basis of Lee's associations.

I don't see a big problem with asking questions and debating Shell
Foundation as an institution or its motives or consistency in its funding of
initiatives like EMBARQ. Indeed, Eric and others engaged with this debate,
which is fine.

BUT THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG in questioning Lee's credibility to say
anything purely because of EMBARQ's funding source.

Many, perhaps most, of the members of this list may have employers or some
link with a funding source that is not entirely green or clean or even
completely free of (dare I say) 'evil'. We all speak here as individuals,
not as organisations.

It is precisely because it is all too easy to smear people on such grounds
that we have this rule about personal attacks! Let it be our ideas and facts
that are debated, not who we are nor who we are associated with.


On another issue, I would also like to take this opportunity to remind
everyone to try to stick to the main focus of the group.

The formal focus is "people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport
with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South')". But tradition
has also made our focus an URBAN one, so that sustran-discuss has evolved to
become the main English-language discussion forum on URBAN transport issues
in developing countries.  So we focus on URBAN TRANSPORT IN THE GLOBAL SOUTH
(but we are not too rigid about it).


I will end by expressing thanks to everyone (including Todd E.) who
contributes to keeping sustran-discuss active and interesting. Let's also
keep it focused and civil.

Paul Barter
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