[sustran] Re: Indian roads - planes, cows, elephants, mosques

[Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory]

Martin Cassini wrote:
> Lots to say and little time but in brief: my sympathies and analysis are
> pro-planet and pro-freedom of choice/movement, but not anti-car.
I FIRMLY believer that is a contradiction. But to clarify one thing I am 
pro-appropriate transport, not anti-car. Except in cities. For me this 
means:
* In the short- to medium-term: A gradual reduction in private cars 
though various means, and a big increase in all the "alternative 
transport" modes, from walking to carshare, and also support of small 
carfree projects (both optically carfree and really carfree)
* In the medium-term: Densification of settlements, freeze and reduction 
on what many call "sprawl", continued development of carfree areas, 
alternative transport improvements
* In the medium- to long-term: Complete transformation of all cities so 
that cars are not desired and so not allowed.

Cars are fine when used appropriately.
>  Roughly
> speaking, traffic signals double congestion, journey times and fuel use
> (and they are responsible for much of the carnage on the roads),
AS you give one vague figure here ("double") are you saying that traffic 
signals double pollution within the wider scope of reducing 
sustainability by half? I am not a traffic engineer, but it seems that 
highways, freeways etc.. fill up no matter how wide they get, how many 
lanes are added, and get jammed up, and all of this without the help of 
traffic signals.
>  so
> until clean cars are widely available, e.g. the compressed air car from
> France/Spain,
WHERE does the electricity come from for that? What kind of behaviour 
does a car enable? Longer trips to the store, bigger refrigerators 
because the store is far away... so high energy use.

But more importantly, how does half of the things you mention above 
compare to the total amount of pollution etc., caused by a doubling in 
walking, public transport and cycling? If one-half of the carnage is 
caused by traffic signals, then this means roughly *only* 600,000 people 
die on the roads each year due to collisions? This is acceptable to you? 
I am not even mentioning the air, noise and visual pollution part.
>  scrapping lights would bring an immediate and significant
> reduction in greenhouse gas emissions. Moreover, lights cost a fortune
> to manufacture, install, maintain and run. What is the cost to the grid
> of the UK's galaxy of 24-hour lights? 
REMEMBER, that I generally agree with you about there being too many 
signals and signs.
> Todd, I like your point about
> facilitating life between buildings,
THANKS.
>  but I question the social
> engineering element in some of your proposals.
AUTOmobilisation is one of the biggest social engineering projects ever! 
People are born in places which are already dominated by the car, so 
their fates are already engineered. The good engineering continues, from 
the smallest regenerative braking system in a hybrid car to the 
Interstate Highway System in the USA. And all the marketing and 
advertising hocus pocus which makes people feel inadequate unless they 
don't have a car. Toyota, etc. is very brilliant. All enabled by human 
nature, e.g. peer pressure, to be sure. The engineers know that well.
>  If people want to go
> further afield and carry stuff or passengers,
THERE are so many existing alternative solutions for this. You are 
talking to me like I am from Mars.
>  and go door-to-door,
DRIVE a car up to my door? Not in places with life between buildings. 
Walking works, cycling too.

Sorry, Martin, you are dreaming about resources which don't exist. I am 
dreaming about using our resources in the most efficient, sustainable 
and desirable way.

DO you really think that we if we eliminating signals and perpetuating 
the dominance of even tamed individual cars is a recipe for a 
sustainable world?

- T


>  good
> luck to them! 
>
> Martin
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
> sustran-discuss-bounces+martincassini=blueyonder.co.uk at list.jca.apc.org
> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+martincassini=blueyonder.co.uk at list.jca.
> apc.org] On Behalf Of Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory
> Sent: 04 May 2007 16:36
> To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
> Subject: [sustran] Re: Indian roads - planes, cows, elephants, mosques
>
>
> Mr Cassini,
>
> It might interest you to know that the issue you discuss is one of the 
> ideas for debate at Towards Carfree Cities in Istanbul late in August. 
> <http://www.worldcarfree.net/conference>
>
> Debate:
> "Complete streets (see www.completestreets.org 
> <http://www.completestreets.org/> for more info) and shared space (see 
> "shared space" entry in Wikipedia) concepts vs. pedestrianisation"
>
> If you are interested in debating this or participating in some way 
> please contact istanbul at worldcarfree.net
> <mailto:istanbul at worldcarfree.net>
>
> I realise that Complete Streets and Shared Space are not the same thing.
>
> ***
>
> My own opinion, briefly, is that your concept of sharing without signals
>
> etc. is GREAT except that private automobiles are not sustainable on a 
> global level and even carshare is not desirable as a long-term solution 
> because of the way that cars ensure that streets remain solely in the 
> job of fulfilling transport duties, rather than a traditional and I 
> think better role to facilitate life between buildings, with transport 
> not hindering this and only enabling it. To put it another way, a street
>
> full of cars with drivers acting politely as possible still dominates 
> the scene, even if collisions go down (and I have seen the videos of 
> Shared Space and believe they do. I really do agree that people need to 
> make eye contact and so on. Signs are also ugly.).
>
> So, it is certainly better than the current situation but no long-term 
> solution, or even a mid-term solution.
>
> But you also seem to say that it is the traffic signals which are making
>
> things difficult for polar bears, rather than the car traffic itself, no
>
> matter what speed it is operating at. This is really funny. Are you 
> serious?
>
> It would be a fine system if there were no cars. In fact, this is the 
> way it us 100-120 years ago. No signals, no signs, and no cars.
>
> So, I propose a compromise: No signals AND  no cars.
>
> Hope to see you in Istanbul. If Mr. Irons can come too, it would be 
> great, as long as he doesn't fly there. The polar bears would not 
> approve. Or will you argue that airplanes should also not have
> restrictions?
>
> - T
>
>
>
> Martin Cassini wrote:
>   
>> May I second Madhav's delightful point? As some of you know, my
>> frustration is with too much traffic regulation, which in my view is 
>> counterproductive, makes roads dangerous and hostile, where the very 
>> restraints - which go against the grain of human nature - set the 
>> stage for conflict and congestion. I love what I see when lights are 
>> out of action and there are no external controls - congestion 
>> dissolving, courtesy thriving, everyone merging in a merry mix of 
>> meandering movement, and the emergence of a new hierarchy, with 
>> vulnerable road-users at the top. Perhaps there is an elegant 
>> compromise to be found - some midway point between India and England 
>> ... priority rules and regimented controls dropped in favour of 
>> natural cooperation, where might is not right, and we adopt 1Q, 
>> denoting single queueing and innate intelligence.
>>  
>> Martin
>> www.goodfun.tv <http://www.goodfun.tv>
>>  
>>  
>> -----Original Message-----
>> *From:*
>> sustran-discuss-bounces+martincassini=blueyonder.co.uk at list.jca.apc.or
>> sustran-discuss-bounces+g
>> [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+martincassini=blueyonder.co.uk at list.jc
>> a.apc.org]
>> *On Behalf Of *Madhav Badami, Prof.
>> *Sent:* 04 May 2007 15:00
>> *To:* Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
>> *Subject:* [sustran] Re: Indian roads - planes, cows, elephants,
>>     
> mosques
>   
>>     Dear Carlos,
>>      
>>     Once the craziness of the academic term comes to an end, I promise
>>     a detailed response to Jonathan Richmond's (and others') postings
>>     on the situation in India (and what we can and ought to do about
>>     it). I will try and work elephants, cows and yoga  -- but not
>>     planes -- into my response as well :-). Meanwhile, I will leave
>>     you with this personal viewpoint ... India is like life itself --
>>     joyous, sometimes sublime, and at the very same time, very messy,
>>     even obscene, but never ever dull and boring.
>>      
>>     Madhav
>>      
>>
>>     
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Todd Edelman
> Director
> Green Idea Factory
>
> Korunní 72
> CZ-10100 Praha 10
> Czech Republic
>
> ++420 605 915 970
> ++420 222 517 832
> Skype: toddedelman
>
> edelman at greenidea.info
>
> Green Idea Factory,
> a member of World Carfree Network
> www.worldcarfree.net
>
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>   


-- 
--------------------------------------------

Todd Edelman
Director
Green Idea Factory

Korunní 72
CZ-10100 Praha 10
Czech Republic

++420 605 915 970
++420 222 517 832
Skype: toddedelman

edelman at greenidea.info

Green Idea Factory,
a member of World Carfree Network
www.worldcarfree.net