[sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car

Lee Schipper SCHIPPER at wri.org
Thu Jul 12 01:46:46 JST 2007


I would add that car OWNERSHIP can cause serious problems if street or
sidewalk parking is unrestricted/underpriced/unregulated/unenforced and
cars pile up everywhere. Having lived in Paris for years among cars on
the sidewalk, only to see cars start to pile upon the streets in Xi'an
(not to mention two wheelers in Hanoi or Indian cities), I think there
are SERIOUS problems with the keeping of vehicles on public property.

>>> "Walter Hook" <whook at itdp.org> 7/11/2007 12:34 PM >>>
Carlos, 

 

You are way off.  Car OWNERSHIP causes relatively few social problems,
and a
lot of social benefits.  The social costs are related to car USE and
overuse, and these costs are not uniform but vary greatly depending on
location.  In some locations, more people are exposed to air pollution,
and
in some locations the use of the car will create congestion whereas in
other
locations it will not.  It is therefore more socially optimal to
regulate
car USE than to regulate its ownership.  

 

If the cheap car generates more pollution than other cars, it could
certainly be banned on those grounds.  But a cheap car generates no
more
congestion than an expensive car.  

 

Otherwise, banning cheap cars just creates a cash transfer from
consumers to
the producers of more expensive cars, and yields no public revenue for
public investments. 

It may have some marginal congestion benefits, but these congestion
benefits
will be poorly targeted and will be therefore far lower than the
aggregate
social benefits of a congestion charge.  In poor areas, where there is
likely to be the least congestion, people will be the most likely to
be
priced out of the auto market, facing higher costs and bringing little
congestion relief, while in wealthy areas, where there is likely to be
the
worst congestion, people will simply switch to more expensive cars and
again
there will be no congestion relief. 

 

If the purpose of the policy is congestion relief, it is likely to be a
far
less effective policy than a better targeted congestion charge.  If
the
purpose is to generate revenues for public investments, it does no
good
either. 

 

With a congestion charge, a rich person or a moderate income person
can
prioritize their trips into the city center and only make them when the
trip
is really worth the social cost of 8 pounds (or whatever the charge
is).
This is a much more flexible and fair policy than an alternative
license
plate scheme which the rich can always get around by buying a second
car, or
a ban on cheap cars, which the rich can always get around by buying an
expensive car.  

 

Best

Walter 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org 
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf
Of Zvi Leve
Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:34 AM
To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport
Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh
car

 

Don't forget that developing a 'national' auto industry may also be one
of
the development goals of the Indian Government. Clearly national
development
goals may conflict with the development goals of other levels of
government
(ie the Mumbai Metropolitan Area). We generally leave it to the
politicians
to balance these various trade-offs, but appealing to the courts to
force
the debate is certainly a legitimate approach.

Shanghai took an interesting approach: among other things they
apparently
banned cars with engine sizes less than 1600 CC. On the one hand this
may
seem perverse because most people clearly cannot afford cars with such
a
large engine size, but on the other hand it is quite clear that
Shanghai
would never be able to accommodate all of the vehicles that it's
citizens
might want to purchase. Plus this policy also serves to reinforce the
Shanghai Automotive Industry <http://biz.yahoo.com/ic/57/57065.html>
Corporation which produces mid-sized vehicles (the Santana) under
license
from VW - with engine sizes of 1600! 

Presumably Mumbai (and many other Indian cities) is in a similar
situation.
People want mobility (in the sense that being able to move about gives
access to more options). If people cannot get where they want to go in
a
convenient way, then it is not surprising that they will turn to other
'private' options such as personal motorized vehicles. India already
has
relatively significant rates of 'motorization' in the sense of
'motorized
vehicles per capita' (not necessarily cars), so I don't know how much
of a
difference banning one particular type of vehicle (presumably an
accessible
one!) will make....

Best regards,

Zvi


Carlos F. Pardo wrote: 

Just for the sake of argument, I don't get Walter's point about
congestion
charging being "fairer" than banning a cheap car. Looking at it from a
certain angle, congestion charging is also a "ban" from the CBD to
those who
only have the money to buy a car and put gas on it (most middle class
people
in low-income countries). It has the perverse effect that only those
who
have 8 pounds a day to "invest" on the London congestion charging (i.e.
rich
people) are the ones who have the "privilege" to ride their car inside
the
city (i would define that as inequity in access). All others can only
use
their car outside of the CBD. Am I way off?

However, there is also the fact that revenue from congestion charging
can be
used (and is used) for improvements in public transport...

I think the best is to (also) include charges to buying the car, such
as the
ones used in Singapore and Shanghai. The bid system is a way of
controlling
very low costs of vehicles while not providing any revenue for the
cities to
improve their public transport, NMT infrastructure, etc.

Best regards,



Carlos F. Pardo
Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator
GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC)
Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708
Bogotá D.C., Colombia
Tel/fax:  +57 (1) 236 2309  Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662
carlos.pardo at sutp.org   www.sutp.org 



Lee Schipper wrote: 

Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the
boom and bust — either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private
motorization — will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning
of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's
inability to plan and enforce!
 
Lee Schipper
Director of Research
EMBARQ, the WRI Center
for Sustainable Transport
10 G St. NE
Washington DC, 20002
+1202 729 7735
FAX +1202 7297775
www.embarq.wri.org 
 
  

"Anupam Gupta, CLSA"  <mailto:anupam.gupta at clsa.com>
<anupam.gupta at clsa.com>
7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM
 
        

Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually.
Do
forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your
answers.
 
 
Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process
can.
What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and
move
the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a)
whether
the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear
the
matter. 
 
Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," 
 
"Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a
handful of
key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with
all
these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in
India
and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). 
 
"Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess
the BHP
will also be on the lower side. 
 
"Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One
reason
why
they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just
over
US$5,000). 
 
"Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be
smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise
duty.
I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. 
 
Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the
Chief
Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's
boss).
My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler
drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr.
C is
also coming from. 
 
Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As
outrageous as
Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability
and
scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly
anti-congestion
pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not
happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply
everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on
parking,
the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in
certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more
people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as
often.
Something's not right in that. 
 
 
 
Regards,
Anupam Gupta
+91 22 6650 5074
Mobile +91 98204 98981
 
 
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yahoogroups
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sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you
can).
Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
 
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equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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