From edelman at greenidea.info Wed Jul 4 01:36:43 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Tue, 03 Jul 2007 18:36:43 +0200 Subject: [sustran] China 'buried smog death finding' - World Bank complies, maybe. Message-ID: <468A7B1B.2090208@greenidea.info> China 'buried smog death finding' *The World Bank is alleged to have cut from a report research that suggests pollution causes hundreds of thousands of premature deaths annually in China.* The move followed pressure from Beijing, which believes the material is too sensitive and could lead to social unrest, said the UK's Financial Times. It said information was cut from the forthcoming report after requests from two Chinese government departments. The World Bank told the BBC the final version had not yet been finalised. But a statement added: "[A preliminary] version of the report did not include some of the issues that are still under discussion." The Financial Times said the Bank report, entitled 'Cost of Pollution in China', found up to 760,000 people die prematurely each year in China because of air and water pollution. High levels of air pollution in China's cities leads to 350,000-400,000 premature deaths, it said. Another 300,000 die because of poor-quality air indoors. The newspaper article, quoting World Bank advisers and Chinese officials, also said research showing that there are 60,000 premature deaths each year because of poor-quality water was also left out of the report. *'Social unrest'* "The World Bank was told that it could not publish this information. It was too sensitive and could cause social unrest," one adviser to the study told the Financial Times. It said the bank "reluctantly" agreed to take out the sensitive information. The World Bank told the BBC that information for the report, which is being compiled in conjunction with the Chinese government, was still under review. A World Bank spokeswoman refused to say whether or not statistics about premature deaths were amongst the information taken out of the initial version. Despite the apparent dispute over figures, the preliminary World Bank report published in March suggests air and water pollution do lead to an increased number of deaths in China. It also says the total cost of air and water pollution in the country amounts to about 5.8% of gross domestic product. According to the Financial Times, China's State Environmental Protection Administration (Sepa) and its health ministry asked the World Bank to cut out the reference to the specific number of pollution-related deaths. The BBC could not reach anyone at Sepa to comment on the issue. But the government department is certainly aware of China's pollution problems. Last month it said about 60% of Chinese cities regularly suffer from air pollution and have no centralised sewage treatment facilities. The final World Bank report is due to be released soon. The organisation has previously said that China is home to 16 of the world's 20 most-polluted cities. -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 Skype: toddedelman www.flickr.com/photos/edelman edelman@greenidea.info Green Idea Factory, a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From guillen at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp Thu Jul 5 17:25:18 2007 From: guillen at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp (guillen at sk.tsukuba.ac.jp) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 17:25:18 +0900 (JST) Subject: [sustran] E-Jeeps Message-ID: <3705.130.158.101.123.1183623918.squirrel@pub.sk.tsukuba.ac.jp> Hello, I just want to share news re:environment- friendly public transport mode from the Philippines :) Cheers, Marie Danielle V. Guillen Urban Transportation Lab. Graduate School of Systems & Information Engineering University of Tsukuba Tsukuba City, Japan ======================================= Jeepney electrifies Makati folk By DJ Yap Philippine Daily Inquirer Last updated 06:31am (Mla time) 07/05/2007 MANILA, Philippines -- On their first excursion in the streets of the metrop olis Wednesday, the two brightly painted ?e-jeepneys? did not roar at all. They did not even purr. For that matter, they did not hiss, or cough, or sputter, like all public utility jeepneys do. Instead, these Earth-friendly cousins of the jeepney wove their way around the Makati central business district quietly -- and with nary a puff of smoke from their glossy behinds. Costing P500,000 each and running on batteries charged via electrical sockets overnight, the 12-seater e-jeepneys had a test-run along Ayala Avenue as part of a study on the feasibility of using this mode of transport on a metro-wide scale. And from Wednesday?s demonstration under the hot mid-morning sun, city offi cials, environmentalists, business executives, and even pedestrians and comm uters were of one mind: They liked what they saw. ?Imagine the jeepney as a purely electric machine that belches nothing, mak es no noise, has a high headroom, comfortable seating and large windows,? S olar Electric Co. (Solarco) president Panch Puckett said. ?You may even pass the mike around and enjoy sing-alongs while on your way to work,? he added. Makati Mayor Jejomar Binay, who was among the first to drive the e-jeepney, described the experience as ?like riding a golf cart.? Push button gets it going ?It?s very easy to ride. Because it?s lighter, the jeepney drivers who ar e so used to the heavy diesel engines will feel a little weird at first, but it only takes a short while to get used to it,? Puckett said. ?You do not hear the engine running. It?s very silent and there?s even a radio for you to check if it?s on,? Joey Salgado, the city?s information and community relations department chief, said. And how to start the vehicle? ?You just push a button,? Salgado said. As the e-jeepneys traversed the busy section of Ayala Avenue, pedestrians on the sidewalks stopped to watch them whiz past, trailed by photographers and cameramen. Drivers on the other lane rolled down their windows to watch the convoy, whose route started from the corner of Paseo de Roxas and Ayala Avenue toward the G3 Park in front of the Makati Shangri-La Hotel, and back. For Binay, the e-jeepneys represent the future of road travel in the financial capital. Nationwide production ?We hope that we can introduce the electric jeepneys in other cities nation wide,? he said during a brief program after the test run. ?Electric-powered jeepneys are set to revolutionize the Philippines? most recognizable icon,? Greenpeace campaign director Von Hernandez said. The e-jeepneys are a venture of Green Renewable Independent Power Producer Inc., which sprang from Greenpeace and other groups, and Solarco, which in turn is a part of GRIPP. Alternative to pollution The campaign is part of GRIPP?s Climate Friendly Cities Project, a multi-pr onged program for mitigating climate change that promotes transport and wast e management initiatives through renewable energy-based technology. ?The e-jeepneys aim to demonstrate that there are climate-friendly alternat ives to the current polluting modes of public transportation in the Philippi nes,? said Athena Ronquillo, GRIPP chair and lead proponent of the e-jeepne y initiative. ?The iconic jeepney remains but without wasteful and carbon emitting diesel , and while providing increased incomes to the vehicles? drivers,? she add ed. Celebrities like Amanda Griffin, Juddah Paolo, Richard Gutierrez and Georgina Wilson, who all support Greenpeace, also graced the affair. ?Considering it has no gas tank (just a battery compartment), the e-jeepney runs purely on stored electricity, resulting in a much quieter and fumeless trip,? Puckett said. ?Diesel-powered jeepneys actually waste more fuel while idling. In the case of the e-jeepney, when the driver steps on the break, the engine really sto ps. It doesn?t idle,? he said. Long-term prospects The battery that makes an e-jeepney run has a two-year warranty. The e-jeepney can run 120 km on a single charge of eight hours, Puckett said. ?If the driver travels at an average speed of 40 kph nonstop, that translat es to a three-hour working day. But the stops can extend his hours because t he battery is not used up,? Puckett said. Binay said the city government and its partners had begun talks with major s takeholders, particularly leaders of jeepney drivers? associations, about t he long-term prospects of the project. ?We have no intention of phasing out anybody in this business,? Puckett sa id. ?This is just to keep people aware and open their minds that there are alte rnative engines -- we?re not talking about bodies but engines -- in a marke t that can clean the environment,? he added. Break from the past On Wednesday, Binay signed an agreement for the leasing by the city of the two e-jeepneys from GRIPP. If the test run proves feasible, the city will lease more units, officials said. Binay said they were also looking into the economics of the project. ?If the e-jeepney can help increase the income of jeepney drivers by removi ng their expenditure for diesel, then all the more reason for us to push ahe ad with the project,? he said. For Puckett, the introduction of the e-jeepney means ?we have no choice but to improve our lives according to these innovations because everything just keeps getting better and better.? He said: ?The e-jeepney will definitely change the way we think, design, dr ive, ride, and experience the mode of transportation that has become so much a part of being Filipino.? From rivera at iss.nl Thu Jul 5 22:06:09 2007 From: rivera at iss.nl (Roselle Rivera) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 15:06:09 +0200 Subject: [sustran] e-jeepney in the Philippines Message-ID: The jeepney in the Philippines, is a major public transport service in the country. It evolved from the US military jeep, and today has become much longer than its original form in the twentieth century. Today, it carries about 17-20 people while it plies the major & smaller streets around the country Hopefully no one will kill this electric car. E-jeepney electrifies Makati folk By DJ Yap Inquirer Last updated 06:31am (Mla time) 07/05/2007 MANILA, Philippines -- On their first excursion in the streets of the metropolis Wednesday, the two brightly painted "e-jeepneys" did not roar at all. They did not even purr. For that matter, they did not hiss, or cough, or sputter, like all public utility jeepneys do. Instead, these Earth-friendly cousins of the jeepney wove their way around the Makati central business district quietly -- and with nary a puff of smoke from their glossy behinds. Costing P500,000 each and running on batteries charged via electrical sockets overnight, the 12-seater e-jeepneys had a test-run along Ayala Avenue as part of a study on the feasibility of using this mode of transport on a metro-wide scale. And from Wednesday's demonstration under the hot mid-morning sun, city officials, environmentalists, business executives, and even pedestrians and commuters were of one mind: They liked what they saw. "Imagine the jeepney as a purely electric machine that belches nothing, makes no noise, has a high headroom, comfortable seating and large windows," Solar Electric Co. (Solarco) president Panch Puckett said. "You may even pass the mike around and enjoy sing-alongs while on your way to work," he added. Makati Mayor Jejomar Binay, who was among the first to drive the e-jeepney, described the experience as "like riding a golf cart." Push button gets it going "It's very easy to ride. Because it's lighter, the jeepney drivers who are so used to the heavy diesel engines will feel a little weird at first, but it only takes a short while to get used to it," Puckett said. "You do not hear the engine running. It's very silent and there's even a radio for you to check if it's on," Joey Salgado, the city's information and community relations department chief, said. And how to start the vehicle? "You just push a button," Salgado said. As the e-jeepneys traversed the busy section of Ayala Avenue, pedestrians on the sidewalks stopped to watch them whiz past, trailed by photographers and cameramen. Drivers on the other lane rolled down their windows to watch the convoy, whose route started from the corner of Paseo de Roxas and Ayala Avenue toward the G3 Park in front of the Makati Shangri-La Hotel, and back. For Binay, the e-jeepneys represent the future of road travel in the financial capital. Nationwide production "We hope that we can introduce the electric jeepneys in other cities nationwide," he said during a brief program after the test run. "Electric-powered jeepneys are set to revolutionize the Philippines' most recognizable icon," Greenpeace campaign director Von Hernandez said. The e-jeepneys are a venture of Green Renewable Independent Power Producer Inc., which sprang from Greenpeace and other groups, and Solarco, which in turn is a part of GRIPP. Alternative to pollution The campaign is part of GRIPP's Climate Friendly Cities Project, a multi-pronged program for mitigating climate change that promotes transport and waste management initiatives through renewable energy-based technology. "The e-jeepneys aim to demonstrate that there are climate-friendly alternatives to the current polluting modes of public transportation in the Philippines," said Athena Ronquillo, GRIPP chair and lead proponent of the e-jeepney initiative. "The iconic jeepney remains but without wasteful and carbon emitting diesel, and while providing increased incomes to the vehicles' drivers," she added. Celebrities like Amanda Griffin, Juddah Paolo, Richard Gutierrez and Georgina Wilson, who all support Greenpeace, also graced the affair. "Considering it has no gas tank (just a battery compartment), the e-jeepney runs purely on stored electricity, resulting in a much quieter and fumeless trip," Puckett said. "Diesel-powered jeepneys actually waste more fuel while idling. In the case of the e-jeepney, when the driver steps on the break, the engine really stops. It doesn't idle," he said. Long-term prospects The battery that makes an e-jeepney run has a two-year warranty. The e-jeepney can run 120 km on a single charge of eight hours, Puckett said. "If the driver travels at an average speed of 40 kph nonstop, that translates to a three-hour working day. But the stops can extend his hours because the battery is not used up," Puckett said. Binay said the city government and its partners had begun talks with major stakeholders, particularly leaders of jeepney drivers' associations, about the long-term prospects of the project. "We have no intention of phasing out anybody in this business," Puckett said. "This is just to keep people aware and open their minds that there are alternative engines -- we're not talking about bodies but engines -- in a market that can clean the environment," he added. Break from the past On Wednesday, Binay signed an agreement for the leasing by the city of the two e-jeepneys from GRIPP. If the test run proves feasible, the city will lease more units, officials said. Binay said they were also looking into the economics of the project. "If the e-jeepney can help increase the income of jeepney drivers by removing their expenditure for diesel, then all the more reason for us to push ahead with the project," he said. For Puckett, the introduction of the e-jeepney means "we have no choice but to improve our lives according to these innovations because everything just keeps getting better and better." He said: "The e-jeepney will definitely change the way we think, design, drive, ride, and experience the mode of transportation that has become so much a part of being Filipino." ROSELLE LEAH K RIVERA PhD Fellow Human Resource and Local Development Staff Group Institute of Social Studies Kortenaerkade 12 2518 AX The Hague, Netherlands Office Tel: +31 70 4260428 Fax: +31 70 4260507 Mobile: +31 627315444 Please refer to: http://www.iss.nl/content/view/full/2873 for ISS? email disclaimer. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070705/1a4c7348/attachment.html From ericbruun at earthlink.net Fri Jul 6 00:51:28 2007 From: ericbruun at earthlink.net (Eric Bruun) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 10:51:28 -0500 (GMT-05:00) Subject: [sustran] Re: e-jeepney in the Philippines Message-ID: <16827683.1183650688538.JavaMail.root@elwamui-sweet.atl.sa.earthlink.net> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070705/67ef2fa7/attachment.html From chuwasg at yahoo.com Fri Jul 6 15:12:00 2007 From: chuwasg at yahoo.com (chuwa) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 23:12:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [sustran] UN Calls for Pedal Power to Reduce Environmental Damage/ Message-ID: <20070706061200.4321.qmail@web36914.mail.mud.yahoo.com> KUALA LUMPUR - More bicycle riding and other lifestyle changes are urgently needed to reduce climate-altering carbon emissions that are damaging Asia?s health and could also threaten the economy, the World Health Organisation said Monday. ?So far the impact is on the health of the people. If the trend continues, it may have an impact on the economy,? said Shigeru Omi, WHO?s regional director for the Western Pacific. Omi proposed greater use of bicycles, the use of clean energy sources, and tax incentives to reduce carbon emissions. ?? we have to adopt lifestyles that are not only healthy but also environment friendly such as reducing the use of private vehicles, walking more or riding bicycles,? he said in a speech. read more: http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=070702094058.h5dld9nd&show_article=1&cat=0 Chu Wa -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What would happen when car advertisements come with health/environment warning, just like the cigarette? The future would be brighter when bicycle industry is bigger than car industry. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070705/38b3c84d/attachment.html From edelman at greenidea.info Fri Jul 6 17:02:02 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 10:02:02 +0200 Subject: [sustran] China's eco-city faces growth challenge Message-ID: <468DF6FA.8010303@greenidea.info> *China's plans to build an "eco-city" of 500,000 people on a huge island in the Yangtze Delta have been widely heralded. But local planners seem to have different priorities from the world leaders who have flocked to see the project. * The sleepy island of Chongming lies across the Yangtze Delta from the dynamic metropolis of Shanghai, the centre of China's global ambitions. It takes an hour's ride on a slow ferry across the river - with inland cargo boats slipping by in the fog - to reach the island, which is criss-crossed with canals and fields where peasant agriculture still takes place. Chongming is the size of Manhattan, and its wetlands form one of the most important migratory bird sanctuaries in China, known as Dongtan. Currently this section of the island is deserted, except for a few visitors who make their way to the isolated nature reserve. *Demonstration city* It is here that Shanghai plans to build a demonstration eco-city which will ultimately house 500,000 people, designed by the UK engineering consultancy firm Arup. Peter Head, Arup's project director, says that the project can be a model for the world. "Significant global climate change, environmental issues, water shortages and the need for the use of cleaner and renewable energy demand the creation of a new approach to urban development," he explained in his office in Shanghai. The eco-city, to be linked to the mainland by an 18-mile long bridge-tunnel which also spans two smaller islands, will initially house between 20,000 and 50,000 people. Conventional cars will be banned in the city centre, while the plans include capturing and purifying water, waste management recycling, reducing landfills that damage the environment, and creating combined heat and power systems. Mr Head says he has been impressed by the speed and determination of the Chinese authorities, who moved at "three times the speed" of Western planning departments. China's centralised planning system has been behind the extraordinary transformation of Shanghai in the last decade into a Western-style metropolis. *Development boom* Dongtan is just one of nine new towns planned by the city of Shanghai to relieve overcrowding in a city of more than 20 million people. Shanghai also plans to relocate much of its shipbuilding industry - the largest in China - on one of these islands, making space for the WorldExpo 2010 site, while providing employment for many of the island's residents. And it plans to rehouse many of the 650,000 inhabitants of the island in modern housing, to make room for eco-tourism and eco-farming. But some observers, such as Professor Chen of Tongji University, think that the local planners are more concerned with raising the income and standard of living of the region than ensuring ecological development. They say that the new ecologically-sound housing developments may not be affordable by locals and could become suburban housing for the rich. Already many have been purchased by overseas Chinese. And they are concerned that the development of shipyards, power plants and bridge- tunnel systems may stimulate rather than retard the over-development of the region. Certainly in a tour of the project run by Shanghai's planners, growth and expansion of this quiet backwater seemed to be the central theme. *Final obstacle* But ultimately, the development of Dongtan Eco-city is dependent not on ecology but politics. After the rapid development of the master plan for the city, final authorisation of the funds for the project has stalled. Arup's Peter Head says the problem is that all big projects are now awaiting approval from the new boss of Shanghai, who was only appointed in March, following the sacking of the former Shanghai Chinese communist party chief in October on corruption charges. With China's high-profile commitment to showing it is serious about tackling environmental issues, it would be surprising if the project did not go through. But its contribution to global warming is likely to remain controversial. -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 Skype: toddedelman www.flickr.com/photos/edelman edelman@greenidea.info Green Idea Factory, a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From edelman at greenidea.info Fri Jul 6 22:05:57 2007 From: edelman at greenidea.info (Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 15:05:57 +0200 Subject: [sustran] General Motors and Chevrolet share Live Earth Greenwash Award! Message-ID: <468E3E35.2070902@greenidea.info> For everyone planning to watch and listen to Live Earth online, watch out!!, because U.S. automaker Chevrolet is one of three sponsors of the online coverage! General Motors, the parent company of Chevy, is also a major sponsor of the MTV contribution to Live Earth, titled "Break the Addiction"... and the website links directly to..... the GM-sponsored promotion for the new Transformers movie... - T -- -------------------------------------------- Todd Edelman Director Green Idea Factory Korunn? 72 CZ-10100 Praha 10 Czech Republic ++420 605 915 970 ++420 222 517 832 Skype: toddedelman www.flickr.com/photos/edelman edelman@greenidea.info Green Idea Factory, a member of World Carfree Network www.worldcarfree.net From anupam.gupta at clsa.com Sat Jul 7 15:37:23 2007 From: anupam.gupta at clsa.com (Anupam Gupta, CLSA) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 14:37:23 +0800 Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car Message-ID: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E1384E9@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads - the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070707/bdf24110/attachment.html From sudhir at secon.in Sat Jul 7 16:59:48 2007 From: sudhir at secon.in (Sudhir) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:29:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E1384E9@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> Message-ID: <001c01c7c06c$ca296560$d607a8c0@SA152A> Sir, It is an excellent idea (vis- a- vis Controlling Vehicle Registrations) But In the democratic country like ours (India) where there is MORE freedom such an exercise would not stand either in front of court or in front of politicians. Vehicle automobile manufactures have tremendous influence on government policies where as the NGO/technical people/experts have none. Now time has come where public own vehicles not for comfort but for status. Already in cities like Bangalore/Chennai vehicle per household is increasing to 2 whereas the household size is decreasing. Allowing a person to buy a vehicle only if he has a parking space is not a good idea as the parking facility (home) is utilised mainly in night ( when there is no traffic) whereas the vehicle would be using the roads during peak times. Congestion pricing is also not a good idea (if implemented on all the modes such as buses etc. for example BOT tolls on National Highways) as more burden is exerted on the poor people thus degrading their life further. Successful western Tools and Techniques cannot be copied directly to suit Indian conditions. They have to be modified to suit Indian conditions. Here I would like to take the liberty of exposing one such policy in our NH . In NHDP projects, there is a suggestion of having variable tolls in peak and off peak timings with substantial difference in costs. But National Highways mainly traverse through rural areas with urban centres bypassed with a peak % of 4-6%. Such a policy is not at all helpful for such National Highways. Coming to Urban centres,Supply based actions would boomerang in future. wait for 10 more years to see the quality of life in a city. Regards Sudhir ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 12:07 PM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads - the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070707/f5c79f7d/attachment.html From alan at ourpeagreenboat.co.uk Tue Jul 10 05:24:30 2007 From: alan at ourpeagreenboat.co.uk (Alan Howes) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 21:24:30 +0100 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E1384E9@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> Message-ID: <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr> But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India accepts it? But I agree with his analysis. Alan -- Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads - the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070709/6d9e6bb5/attachment.html From SCHIPPER at wri.org Tue Jul 10 06:12:58 2007 From: SCHIPPER at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:12:58 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr> References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E1384E9@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr> Message-ID: <46926C9A0200003800010466@HERMES.wri.org> this is a tough call ? the small cars, if clean, slow, safe and truly small, could really be a boon IF and ONLY IF there are congesiton pricing and rational parking regs in effect so that the chaos in Indian cities arising from all the two wheelers does'nt suddenly have a much larger footprint and above all higher fuel use. I have a great picture of a booth in front of a CICI bank in Pune where a salesman is sitting under a banner declaring "cheap loans for two wheelers" even though there is no decent sidewalk in front of that location. In other words, India has not even caught up with its two wheelers (or cars) - to leap ahead into 1 lakh cars before really taking a deep breath would just make roads more and more clogged, and pedestrians and bicyclists even more endangered, not to mentioned turning more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers. >>> "Alan Howes" 7/9/2007 4:24:30 PM >>> But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India accepts it? But I agree with his analysis. Alan -- Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads - the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From whook at itdp.org Tue Jul 10 06:05:30 2007 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 17:05:30 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr> Message-ID: <001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> The spirit is good, but the means seems very wrong headed to me. What is the legal precedent? That governments should be allowed to ban certain categories of vehicles from city streets if the price of the vehicle is too low? This is outrageous. A 1 lak car consumes no more road space than a car costing much more. I would encourage the MMRDA to look into traffic cells, congestion charging and market-oriented parking charges as more rational policies for allocating scarce public road space in Mumbai. Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Alan Howes Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:25 PM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India accepts it? But I agree with his analysis. Alan -- Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads - the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. _____ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070709/5dd4f642/attachment.html From SCHIPPER at wri.org Tue Jul 10 06:16:16 2007 From: SCHIPPER at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 17:16:16 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <46926C9A0200003800010466@HERMES.wri.org> References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E1384E9@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr> <46926C9A0200003800010466@HERMES.wri.org> Message-ID: <46926D600200003800010474@HERMES.wri.org> Let me add that "boon" means "if 1 lakh cars in place of conventional cars"; bust means "if 1 lakh cars flooding the streets as those who cannot afford conventional cars get wheels" Lee >>> "Lee Schipper" 7/9/2007 5:12:58 PM >>> this is a tough call ? the small cars, if clean, slow, safe and truly small, could really be a boon IF and ONLY IF there are congesiton pricing and rational parking regs in effect so that the chaos in Indian cities arising from all the two wheelers does'nt suddenly have a much larger footprint and above all higher fuel use. I have a great picture of a booth in front of a CICI bank in Pune where a salesman is sitting under a banner declaring "cheap loans for two wheelers" even though there is no decent sidewalk in front of that location. In other words, India has not even caught up with its two wheelers (or cars) - to leap ahead into 1 lakh cars before really taking a deep breath would just make roads more and more clogged, and pedestrians and bicyclists even more endangered, not to mentioned turning more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers. >>> "Alan Howes" 7/9/2007 4:24:30 PM >>> But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India accepts it? But I agree with his analysis. Alan -- Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads - the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From anupam.gupta at clsa.com Tue Jul 10 14:02:14 2007 From: anupam.gupta at clsa.com (Anupam Gupta, CLSA) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 13:02:14 +0800 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car Message-ID: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E2161E2@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually. Do forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your answers. Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process can. What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and move the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a) whether the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear the matter. Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," "Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a handful of key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with all these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in India and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). "Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess the BHP will also be on the lower side. "Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason why they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just over US$5,000). "Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise duty. I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the Chief Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's boss). My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr. C is also coming from. Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As outrageous as Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability and scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly anti-congestion pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on parking, the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as often. Something's not right in that. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070710/ddc47f31/attachment.html From sujit at vsnl.com Tue Jul 10 14:51:03 2007 From: sujit at vsnl.com (Sujit Patwardhan) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 11:21:03 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> References: <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr> <001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <4cfd20aa0707092251w26c02efdsc9b0c9d4ee5dd7e2@mail.gmail.com> 10 July 2007 I don't think our democratic constitution will permit such a ban, which can be prevented on grounds of unjustified discrimination (unless lack of safety is cited as the reason and can be proved to be true) but the idea for automobile restriction will hopefully become possible to sell at least in some form, to our policy makers who are selectively ignorant to the consequences of auto domination. It may become possible to force them to admit that auto-mania needs to be countered in the interest of the majority of population which is the sufferer. And as Walter rightly points out there are other options - we could start by charging heavy levies on fuel guzzlers and high polluting vehicles, as well as tightening parking controls (something totally contradictory to present policy of searching for parking spaces even under ones bed!! :-) -- Sujit Patwardhan Parisar/PTTF Pune, India On 7/10/07, Walter Hook wrote: > > The spirit is good, but the means seems very wrong headed to me. What is > the legal precedent? That governments should be allowed to ban certain > categories of vehicles from city streets if the price of the vehicle is too > low? This is outrageous. A 1 lak car consumes no more road space than a > car costing much more. > > > > I would encourage the MMRDA to look into traffic cells, congestion > charging and market-oriented parking charges as more rational policies for > allocating scarce public road space in Mumbai. > > > > Walter > > > > -----Original Message----- > *From:* sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto: > sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] *On Behalf Of *Alan > Howes > *Sent:* Monday, July 09, 2007 4:25 PM > *To:* Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > *Subject:* [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car > > > > But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could > Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India > accepts it? > > > > But I agree with his analysis. > > > > Alan > > > > -- > Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Anupam Gupta, CLSA > > *To:* sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org > > *Sent:* Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM > > *Subject:* [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car > > > > MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the > Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track > record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians > and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the > roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a > strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on > the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin > his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. > Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your > thoughts. > > > > http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 > > > > > > *MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car* > > MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they > could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai > Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with > the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, > says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) > to stop the car's rollout in the city. > > Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its > infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and > private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it > would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford > bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to > hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. > > As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping > 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western > Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads ? the > Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road > (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. > > "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only > those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There > should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and > Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. > The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and > flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. > > That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers > in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. > "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic > amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. > > > > > Regards, > > Anupam Gupta > > +91 22 6650 5074 > > Mobile +91 98204 98981 > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > *CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this > Email* > > > > The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory > Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or > sent to you upon request. > > > ------------------------------ > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > > -------------------------------------------------------- > IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via > YAHOOGROUPS. > > Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to > join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The > yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the > real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you > can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > > ================================================================ > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries > (the 'Global South'). > > -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070710/dfd498ef/attachment.html From debi.cat at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 15:43:22 2007 From: debi.cat at gmail.com (Debi Goenka) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:13:22 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car References: <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr><001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <4cfd20aa0707092251w26c02efdsc9b0c9d4ee5dd7e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008401c7c2bd$a21aeeb0$2f2aa13b@debisam> Hi all Just a few more points to add to this discussion - 1. The Committee appointed by the Bombay High Court (the Lal Committee) had recommended a traffic restraint scheme for the island city based on number plates - the idea was to get 20% of the privately owned vehicles off the roads in the island city of Mumbai during week days. This issue is still to be decided by the Court. 2. I do not think Dr Chandrashekhar can file a PIL on this issue unless he gets prior permission of Government, or unless he resigns, or retires. I wonder if any of these options are being contemplated at the moment. 3. However, as Metropolitan Commissioner, he can make recommendations for modification of the Regional Plan so that private transport use in Mumbai, which is a part of the Mumbai Metropolitan Region, can be regulated. Nothing is actually stopping him from doing this. These recommendations could include traffic restraint schemes. congestion pricing, availability of mandatory off road parking for new vehicles, higher parking charges, etc. -- in short, the works!! Why is this option not being explored? 4. The Regional Plan can also address issues of public transport vs private transport, and look at options of upgrading suburban trains, public bus systems, BRT, etc. Issues such as flyovers, elevated roads, sea links, etc can also be addressed through this process. Cheers Debi PS I am also wondering how Dr C would react if Reliance decided to make a Rs. 99,999 car! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sujit Patwardhan To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car 10 July 2007 I don't think our democratic constitution will permit such a ban, which can be prevented on grounds of unjustified discrimination (unless lack of safety is cited as the reason and can be proved to be true) but the idea for automobile restriction will hopefully become possible to sell at least in some form, to our policy makers who are selectively ignorant to the consequences of auto domination. It may become possible to force them to admit that auto-mania needs to be countered in the interest of the majority of population which is the sufferer. And as Walter rightly points out there are other options - we could start by charging heavy levies on fuel guzzlers and high polluting vehicles, as well as tightening parking controls (something totally contradictory to present policy of searching for parking spaces even under ones bed!! :-) -- Sujit Patwardhan Parisar/PTTF Pune, India On 7/10/07, Walter Hook wrote: The spirit is good, but the means seems very wrong headed to me. What is the legal precedent? That governments should be allowed to ban certain categories of vehicles from city streets if the price of the vehicle is too low? This is outrageous. A 1 lak car consumes no more road space than a car costing much more. I would encourage the MMRDA to look into traffic cells, congestion charging and market-oriented parking charges as more rational policies for allocating scarce public road space in Mumbai. Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Alan Howes Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:25 PM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India accepts it? But I agree with his analysis. Alan -- Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads ? the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070710/cc3098ae/attachment.html From debi.cat at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 15:43:22 2007 From: debi.cat at gmail.com (Debi Goenka) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:13:22 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car References: <004b01c7c267$2ce0f9b0$2949b251@userukifbwjukr><001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> <4cfd20aa0707092251w26c02efdsc9b0c9d4ee5dd7e2@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <008401c7c2bd$a21aeeb0$2f2aa13b@debisam> Hi all Just a few more points to add to this discussion - 1. The Committee appointed by the Bombay High Court (the Lal Committee) had recommended a traffic restraint scheme for the island city based on number plates - the idea was to get 20% of the privately owned vehicles off the roads in the island city of Mumbai during week days. This issue is still to be decided by the Court. 2. I do not think Dr Chandrashekhar can file a PIL on this issue unless he gets prior permission of Government, or unless he resigns, or retires. I wonder if any of these options are being contemplated at the moment. 3. However, as Metropolitan Commissioner, he can make recommendations for modification of the Regional Plan so that private transport use in Mumbai, which is a part of the Mumbai Metropolitan Region, can be regulated. Nothing is actually stopping him from doing this. These recommendations could include traffic restraint schemes. congestion pricing, availability of mandatory off road parking for new vehicles, higher parking charges, etc. -- in short, the works!! Why is this option not being explored? 4. The Regional Plan can also address issues of public transport vs private transport, and look at options of upgrading suburban trains, public bus systems, BRT, etc. Issues such as flyovers, elevated roads, sea links, etc can also be addressed through this process. Cheers Debi PS I am also wondering how Dr C would react if Reliance decided to make a Rs. 99,999 car! ----- Original Message ----- From: Sujit Patwardhan To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Sent: Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:21 AM Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car 10 July 2007 I don't think our democratic constitution will permit such a ban, which can be prevented on grounds of unjustified discrimination (unless lack of safety is cited as the reason and can be proved to be true) but the idea for automobile restriction will hopefully become possible to sell at least in some form, to our policy makers who are selectively ignorant to the consequences of auto domination. It may become possible to force them to admit that auto-mania needs to be countered in the interest of the majority of population which is the sufferer. And as Walter rightly points out there are other options - we could start by charging heavy levies on fuel guzzlers and high polluting vehicles, as well as tightening parking controls (something totally contradictory to present policy of searching for parking spaces even under ones bed!! :-) -- Sujit Patwardhan Parisar/PTTF Pune, India On 7/10/07, Walter Hook wrote: The spirit is good, but the means seems very wrong headed to me. What is the legal precedent? That governments should be allowed to ban certain categories of vehicles from city streets if the price of the vehicle is too low? This is outrageous. A 1 lak car consumes no more road space than a car costing much more. I would encourage the MMRDA to look into traffic cells, congestion charging and market-oriented parking charges as more rational policies for allocating scarce public road space in Mumbai. Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Alan Howes Sent: Monday, July 09, 2007 4:25 PM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car But leaving aside the questions of political acceptability, how could Chandrashekhar ban the 1 lakh car in Greater Mumbai when the rest of India accepts it? But I agree with his analysis. Alan -- Alan Howes, Perthshire, Scotland ----- Original Message ----- From: Anupam Gupta, CLSA To: sustran-discuss@list.jca.apc.org Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 7:37 AM Subject: [sustran] MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MMRDA is the regional planning authority for Mumbai. It reports to the Chief Minister. MMRDA Chief, Dr. T. Chandrashekhar, has an impressive track record of work in Thane. In Mumbai, he's been caught between the politicians and the BMC. To give him credit, there's a lot of work he's had done on the roads. However - and see below - this is the first time he's taking such a strong stance. The battle between free enterprise and urban planning? I'm on the MMRDA chief's side on this one. I just hope this posturing doesn't ruin his career, because ultimately its the politicians who are in charge. Somehow I just can't see this litigation stand in court. Would love your thoughts. http://www.dnaindia.com/report.asp?NewsID=1108645 MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car MUMBAI: When the Tatas launch their Rs1 lakh car some time next year, they could face a roadblock in Mumbai. T Chandrashekhar, who heads the Mumbai Metropolitan Region Development Authority (MMRDA), the agency entrusted with the task of implementing the city's multi-crore infrastructure projects, says that he would be the first to file a public interest litigation (PIL) to stop the car's rollout in the city. Chandrashekhar believes that the city will never taste the fruits of its infrastructure investments unless it rations the use of road space and private vehicles. "The Tata car cannot be permitted (into the city) as it would choke up Mumbai. The low cost would mean that all those who can afford bikes will jump into the car segment. Then, no road space will be enough to hold the sea of vehicles. The city will be doomed," he warns. As metropolitan commissioner, Chandrashekhar is in charge of redeveloping 150 km of roads in Mumbai, which includes both the Eastern and Western Express Highways and the new east-west connecting roads ? the Jogeshwari-Vikhroli Link Road (JVLR) and the Santa Cruz-Chembur Link Road (SCLR). He wants the state government to initiate strict vehicle rationing. "Today, people are buying vehicles like they purchase chocolates. Only those citizens who have parking space must be allowed to buy cars. There should be a fixed quota of new vehicles sold in Mumbai. And like London and Paris, the city must levy a congestion tax to de-clog the roads," he adds. The MMRDA chief cautioned that in the next five years, all the roads and flyovers will be inadequate if vehicular growth is not controlled. That apart, Chandrashekhar also wants to control the influx of job-seekers in Mumbai. He wants the city to introduce a work permit regime in Mumbai. "Only those having a work permit and a valid house must be provided basic amenities like ration card, telephone connection and power supply," he said. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -- ------------------------------------------------------ Sujit Patwardhan sujit@vsnl.com sujitjp@gmail.com "Yamuna", ICS Colony, Ganeshkhind Road, Pune 411 007 India Tel: 25537955 ----------------------------------------------------- Hon. Secretary: Parisar www.parisar.org ------------------------------------------------------ Founder Member: PTTF (Pune Traffic & Transportation Forum) www.pttf.net ------------------------------------------------------ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070710/cc3098ae/attachment-0001.html From ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com Tue Jul 10 15:56:16 2007 From: ashok.sreenivas at gmail.com (Ashok Sreenivas) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 12:26:16 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> References: <001001c7c26c$e6e76790$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <46932D90.1020300@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070710/ef3b1919/attachment.html From SCHIPPER at wri.org Tue Jul 10 19:58:25 2007 From: SCHIPPER at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 06:58:25 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E2161E2@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E2161E2@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> Message-ID: <46932E11020000380001054B@HERMES.wri.org> Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the boom and bust ? either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private motorization ? will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's inability to plan and enforce! Lee Schipper Director of Research EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport 10 G St. NE Washington DC, 20002 +1202 729 7735 FAX +1202 7297775 www.embarq.wri.org >>> "Anupam Gupta, CLSA" 7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM >>> Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually. Do forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your answers. Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process can. What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and move the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a) whether the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear the matter. Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," "Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a handful of key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with all these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in India and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). "Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess the BHP will also be on the lower side. "Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason why they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just over US$5,000). "Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise duty. I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the Chief Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's boss). My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr. C is also coming from. Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As outrageous as Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability and scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly anti-congestion pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on parking, the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as often. Something's not right in that. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. From carlosfpardo at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 08:00:24 2007 From: carlosfpardo at gmail.com (Carlos F. Pardo) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:00:24 -0500 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <46932E11020000380001054B@HERMES.wri.org> References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E2161E2@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> <46932E11020000380001054B@HERMES.wri.org> Message-ID: <46940F88.1050001@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070710/eb806349/attachment.html From tr_saranathan at hotmail.com Wed Jul 11 12:30:48 2007 From: tr_saranathan at hotmail.com (TR Saranathan) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:00:48 +0530 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <46940F88.1050001@gmail.com> Message-ID: Sir/Madam, Nowadays the approach in solving many problems has been an INTEGRATED one. Why not do this keeping in mind all the suggestions so far given for and against this problem also. Further, Transport problems depend on many Factors and mainly the Location, the Climate,the Economy etc of a particular Place. Dr.T.R.Saranathan >From: "Carlos F. Pardo" >Reply-To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport > >To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport >Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car >Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 18:00:24 -0500 > > > > > > > >Just for the sake of argument, I don't get Walter's point about >congestion charging being "fairer" than banning a cheap car. Looking at >it from a certain angle, congestion charging is also a "ban" from the >CBD to those who only have the money to buy a car and put gas on it >(most middle class people in low-income countries). It has the perverse >effect that only those who have 8 pounds a day to "invest" on the >London congestion charging (i.e. rich people) are the ones who have the >"privilege" to ride their car inside the city (i would define that as >inequity in access). All others can only use their car outside of the >CBD. Am I way off? > > > >However, there is also the fact that revenue from congestion charging >can be used (and is used) for improvements in public transport... > > > >I think the best is to (also) include charges to buying the car, such >as the ones used in Singapore and Shanghai. The bid system is a way of >controlling very low costs of vehicles while not providing any revenue >for the cities to improve their public transport, NMT infrastructure, >etc. > > > >Best regards, > > >Carlos F. Pardo >Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator >GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) >Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 >Bogotá D.C., Colombia >Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 >carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org > > > > >Lee Schipper wrote: > > >Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the >boom and bust — either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private >motorization — will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning >of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's >inability to plan and enforce! > >Lee Schipper >Director of Research >EMBARQ, the WRI Center >for Sustainable Transport >10 G St. NE >Washington DC, 20002 >+1202 729 7735 >FAX +1202 7297775 >www.embarq.wri.org > > > > > > >"Anupam Gupta, CLSA" 7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM > > > > > > >Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually. >Do >forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your >answers. > > >Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process >can. >What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and >move >the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a) >whether >the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear >the >matter. > >Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," > >"Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a >handful of >key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with >all >these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in >India >and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). > >"Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess >the BHP >will also be on the lower side. > >"Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason >why >they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just >over >US$5,000). > >"Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be >smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise >duty. >I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. > >Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the >Chief >Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's >boss). >My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler >drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr. >C is >also coming from. > >Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As >outrageous as >Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability >and >scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly >anti-congestion >pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not >happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply >everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on >parking, >the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in >certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more >people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as >often. >Something's not right in that. > > > >Regards, >Anupam Gupta >+91 22 6650 5074 >Mobile +91 98204 98981 > > >------------------------------------------------------------- > >CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing >this Email > >The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and >Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at >https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. > >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to >join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the >real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you >can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >(the 'Global South'). > > > >-------------------------------------------------------- >IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via >YAHOOGROUPS. > >Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to >join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The >yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the >real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you >can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. > >================================================================ >SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, >equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries >(the 'Global South'). _________________________________________________________________ Real Estate classifieds on MSN - for free.www.yello.in http://www.yello.in/home.php?utm_source=hotmailtag&utm_medium=email&utm_content=in&utm_campaign=jun From sunny.enie at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 12:51:10 2007 From: sunny.enie at gmail.com (Sunny) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:51:10 +0700 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469453AE.8020703@gmail.com> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070711/89c27d4f/attachment.html From zvi at inro.ca Thu Jul 12 00:34:27 2007 From: zvi at inro.ca (Zvi Leve) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 11:34:27 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <46940F88.1050001@gmail.com> References: <4EAD6A7366C3C048B9304D45EE5B352E2161E2@zhkdntmb01a.int.clsa.com> <46932E11020000380001054B@HERMES.wri.org> <46940F88.1050001@gmail.com> Message-ID: <4694F883.9070703@inro.ca> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070711/b0f54cab/attachment.html From whook at itdp.org Thu Jul 12 01:34:27 2007 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:34:27 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <4694F883.9070703@inro.ca> Message-ID: <001101c7c3d9$59fd23b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Carlos, You are way off. Car OWNERSHIP causes relatively few social problems, and a lot of social benefits. The social costs are related to car USE and overuse, and these costs are not uniform but vary greatly depending on location. In some locations, more people are exposed to air pollution, and in some locations the use of the car will create congestion whereas in other locations it will not. It is therefore more socially optimal to regulate car USE than to regulate its ownership. If the cheap car generates more pollution than other cars, it could certainly be banned on those grounds. But a cheap car generates no more congestion than an expensive car. Otherwise, banning cheap cars just creates a cash transfer from consumers to the producers of more expensive cars, and yields no public revenue for public investments. It may have some marginal congestion benefits, but these congestion benefits will be poorly targeted and will be therefore far lower than the aggregate social benefits of a congestion charge. In poor areas, where there is likely to be the least congestion, people will be the most likely to be priced out of the auto market, facing higher costs and bringing little congestion relief, while in wealthy areas, where there is likely to be the worst congestion, people will simply switch to more expensive cars and again there will be no congestion relief. If the purpose of the policy is congestion relief, it is likely to be a far less effective policy than a better targeted congestion charge. If the purpose is to generate revenues for public investments, it does no good either. With a congestion charge, a rich person or a moderate income person can prioritize their trips into the city center and only make them when the trip is really worth the social cost of 8 pounds (or whatever the charge is). This is a much more flexible and fair policy than an alternative license plate scheme which the rich can always get around by buying a second car, or a ban on cheap cars, which the rich can always get around by buying an expensive car. Best Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Zvi Leve Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:34 AM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car Don't forget that developing a 'national' auto industry may also be one of the development goals of the Indian Government. Clearly national development goals may conflict with the development goals of other levels of government (ie the Mumbai Metropolitan Area). We generally leave it to the politicians to balance these various trade-offs, but appealing to the courts to force the debate is certainly a legitimate approach. Shanghai took an interesting approach: among other things they apparently banned cars with engine sizes less than 1600 CC. On the one hand this may seem perverse because most people clearly cannot afford cars with such a large engine size, but on the other hand it is quite clear that Shanghai would never be able to accommodate all of the vehicles that it's citizens might want to purchase. Plus this policy also serves to reinforce the Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation which produces mid-sized vehicles (the Santana) under license from VW - with engine sizes of 1600! Presumably Mumbai (and many other Indian cities) is in a similar situation. People want mobility (in the sense that being able to move about gives access to more options). If people cannot get where they want to go in a convenient way, then it is not surprising that they will turn to other 'private' options such as personal motorized vehicles. India already has relatively significant rates of 'motorization' in the sense of 'motorized vehicles per capita' (not necessarily cars), so I don't know how much of a difference banning one particular type of vehicle (presumably an accessible one!) will make.... Best regards, Zvi Carlos F. Pardo wrote: Just for the sake of argument, I don't get Walter's point about congestion charging being "fairer" than banning a cheap car. Looking at it from a certain angle, congestion charging is also a "ban" from the CBD to those who only have the money to buy a car and put gas on it (most middle class people in low-income countries). It has the perverse effect that only those who have 8 pounds a day to "invest" on the London congestion charging (i.e. rich people) are the ones who have the "privilege" to ride their car inside the city (i would define that as inequity in access). All others can only use their car outside of the CBD. Am I way off? However, there is also the fact that revenue from congestion charging can be used (and is used) for improvements in public transport... I think the best is to (also) include charges to buying the car, such as the ones used in Singapore and Shanghai. The bid system is a way of controlling very low costs of vehicles while not providing any revenue for the cities to improve their public transport, NMT infrastructure, etc. Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org Lee Schipper wrote: Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the boom and bust ? either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private motorization ? will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's inability to plan and enforce! Lee Schipper Director of Research EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport 10 G St. NE Washington DC, 20002 +1202 729 7735 FAX +1202 7297775 www.embarq.wri.org "Anupam Gupta, CLSA" 7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually. Do forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your answers. Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process can. What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and move the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a) whether the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear the matter. Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," "Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a handful of key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with all these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in India and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). "Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess the BHP will also be on the lower side. "Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason why they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just over US$5,000). "Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise duty. I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the Chief Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's boss). My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr. C is also coming from. Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As outrageous as Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability and scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly anti-congestion pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on parking, the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as often. Something's not right in that. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). _____ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://list.jca.apc.org/public/sustran-discuss/attachments/20070711/4b36b926/attachment.html From SCHIPPER at wri.org Thu Jul 12 01:46:46 2007 From: SCHIPPER at wri.org (Lee Schipper) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:46:46 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <001101c7c3d9$59fd23b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> References: <4694F883.9070703@inro.ca> <001101c7c3d9$59fd23b0$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> Message-ID: <4694D135.D997.0038.0@wri.org> I would add that car OWNERSHIP can cause serious problems if street or sidewalk parking is unrestricted/underpriced/unregulated/unenforced and cars pile up everywhere. Having lived in Paris for years among cars on the sidewalk, only to see cars start to pile upon the streets in Xi'an (not to mention two wheelers in Hanoi or Indian cities), I think there are SERIOUS problems with the keeping of vehicles on public property. >>> "Walter Hook" 7/11/2007 12:34 PM >>> Carlos, You are way off. Car OWNERSHIP causes relatively few social problems, and a lot of social benefits. The social costs are related to car USE and overuse, and these costs are not uniform but vary greatly depending on location. In some locations, more people are exposed to air pollution, and in some locations the use of the car will create congestion whereas in other locations it will not. It is therefore more socially optimal to regulate car USE than to regulate its ownership. If the cheap car generates more pollution than other cars, it could certainly be banned on those grounds. But a cheap car generates no more congestion than an expensive car. Otherwise, banning cheap cars just creates a cash transfer from consumers to the producers of more expensive cars, and yields no public revenue for public investments. It may have some marginal congestion benefits, but these congestion benefits will be poorly targeted and will be therefore far lower than the aggregate social benefits of a congestion charge. In poor areas, where there is likely to be the least congestion, people will be the most likely to be priced out of the auto market, facing higher costs and bringing little congestion relief, while in wealthy areas, where there is likely to be the worst congestion, people will simply switch to more expensive cars and again there will be no congestion relief. If the purpose of the policy is congestion relief, it is likely to be a far less effective policy than a better targeted congestion charge. If the purpose is to generate revenues for public investments, it does no good either. With a congestion charge, a rich person or a moderate income person can prioritize their trips into the city center and only make them when the trip is really worth the social cost of 8 pounds (or whatever the charge is). This is a much more flexible and fair policy than an alternative license plate scheme which the rich can always get around by buying a second car, or a ban on cheap cars, which the rich can always get around by buying an expensive car. Best Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Zvi Leve Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:34 AM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car Don't forget that developing a 'national' auto industry may also be one of the development goals of the Indian Government. Clearly national development goals may conflict with the development goals of other levels of government (ie the Mumbai Metropolitan Area). We generally leave it to the politicians to balance these various trade-offs, but appealing to the courts to force the debate is certainly a legitimate approach. Shanghai took an interesting approach: among other things they apparently banned cars with engine sizes less than 1600 CC. On the one hand this may seem perverse because most people clearly cannot afford cars with such a large engine size, but on the other hand it is quite clear that Shanghai would never be able to accommodate all of the vehicles that it's citizens might want to purchase. Plus this policy also serves to reinforce the Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation which produces mid-sized vehicles (the Santana) under license from VW - with engine sizes of 1600! Presumably Mumbai (and many other Indian cities) is in a similar situation. People want mobility (in the sense that being able to move about gives access to more options). If people cannot get where they want to go in a convenient way, then it is not surprising that they will turn to other 'private' options such as personal motorized vehicles. India already has relatively significant rates of 'motorization' in the sense of 'motorized vehicles per capita' (not necessarily cars), so I don't know how much of a difference banning one particular type of vehicle (presumably an accessible one!) will make.... Best regards, Zvi Carlos F. Pardo wrote: Just for the sake of argument, I don't get Walter's point about congestion charging being "fairer" than banning a cheap car. Looking at it from a certain angle, congestion charging is also a "ban" from the CBD to those who only have the money to buy a car and put gas on it (most middle class people in low-income countries). It has the perverse effect that only those who have 8 pounds a day to "invest" on the London congestion charging (i.e. rich people) are the ones who have the "privilege" to ride their car inside the city (i would define that as inequity in access). All others can only use their car outside of the CBD. Am I way off? However, there is also the fact that revenue from congestion charging can be used (and is used) for improvements in public transport... I think the best is to (also) include charges to buying the car, such as the ones used in Singapore and Shanghai. The bid system is a way of controlling very low costs of vehicles while not providing any revenue for the cities to improve their public transport, NMT infrastructure, etc. Best regards, Carlos F. Pardo Coordinador de Proyecto- Project Coordinator GTZ - Proyecto de Transporte Sostenible (SUTP, SUTP-LAC) Cl 93A # 14-17 of 708 Bogot? D.C., Colombia Tel/fax: +57 (1) 236 2309 Mobile: +57 (3) 15 296 0662 carlos.pardo@sutp.org www.sutp.org Lee Schipper wrote: Thanks. we need to continue this discussion, as it is clear that the boom and bust ? either way a rapid rise in uncontrolled private motorization ? will endanger ALL indian cities, but a simple banning of the "vehicle" is a poor way of making up for authorities'/society's inability to plan and enforce! Lee Schipper Director of Research EMBARQ, the WRI Center for Sustainable Transport 10 G St. NE Washington DC, 20002 +1202 729 7735 FAX +1202 7297775 www.embarq.wri.org "Anupam Gupta, CLSA" 7/10/2007 1:02:14 AM Hi All - I've attempted to reply to each of your points individually. Do forgive me, if I've missed anyone out and thanks very much for your answers. Alan Howes - Chandrashekhar can't ban the car. Only the legal process can. What he's said is that he will file a "Public Interest Litigation" and move the court on this issue. It will be left on the court to decide (a) whether the PIL should even be listened to at all and if yes, then to (b) hear the matter. Lee Schipper - you said "if clean, slow, safe and truly small," "Clean" - In India, Euro III norms are applicable in metros and a handful of key cities and Euro II in all other areas. Tata's car will comply with all these norms. (Note that diesel accounts for about 20% of car sales in India and we have CRDI engines although these are not mandatory). "Slow" - not sure what you meant, but its a 630cc engine and I guess the BHP will also be on the lower side. "Safe" - there are no safety requirements in India for cars. One reason why they're so attractively priced. (cheapest car in India retails at just over US$5,000). "Truly small" - we still don't know the specs, but it will have to be smaller than 4,000mm to qualify as a "small car" and get lower excise duty. I fear you bust scenario is more likely than a boom scenario. Congestion pricing in Mumbai has been specifically ruled out by the Chief Minister of Maharahstra (who also happens to be Dr. Chandrashekhar's boss). My personal view is that this car will indeed turn "more two wheeler drivers/riders into victims of l lakh four wheelers". That's where Dr. C is also coming from. Walter Hook - Indeed, banning the car would be outrageous. As outrageous as Mumbai's urban planning, which seems to be devoid of sustainability and scalability. As I mentioned above, the Govt is strictly anti-congestion pricing. As for "market-oriented parking charges" - well, that's not happening either. More and more the Govt is looking at creating supply everywhere without a thought for the longer term. For example - on parking, the Municipality has suggested building huge underground car parks in certain areas. So we're talking - more supply for parking so that more people use cars to travel more often on roads that don't expand as often. Something's not right in that. Regards, Anupam Gupta +91 22 6650 5074 Mobile +91 98204 98981 ------------------------------------------------------------- CLSA CLEAN & GREEN: Please consider our environment before printing this Email The content of this communication is subject to CLSA Legal and Regulatory Notices, which can be viewed at https://www.clsa.com/disclaimer.html or sent to you upon request. -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). _____ -------------------------------------------------------- IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via YAHOOGROUPS. Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss to join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post to the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem like you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement. ================================================================ SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). From whook at itdp.org Thu Jul 12 02:11:31 2007 From: whook at itdp.org (Walter Hook) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 13:11:31 -0400 Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car In-Reply-To: <4694D135.D997.0038.0@wri.org> Message-ID: <002001c7c3de$86f8d940$3601a8c0@DFJLYL81> I would argue this is not a problem inherent in car ownership but rather a function of undercharging for parking on public roads. Parking is a function of use, not of ownership -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:47 PM To: 'Global 'South' Sustainable Transport' Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car I would add that car OWNERSHIP can cause serious problems if street or sidewalk parking is unrestricted/underpriced/unregulated/unenforced and cars pile up everywhere. Having lived in Paris for years among cars on the sidewalk, only to see cars start to pile upon the streets in Xi'an (not to mention two wheelers in Hanoi or Indian cities), I think there are SERIOUS problems with the keeping of vehicles on public property. >>> "Walter Hook" 7/11/2007 12:34 PM >>> Carlos, You are way off. Car OWNERSHIP causes relatively few social problems, and a lot of social benefits. The social costs are related to car USE and overuse, and these costs are not uniform but vary greatly depending on location. In some locations, more people are exposed to air pollution, and in some locations the use of the car will create congestion whereas in other locations it will not. It is therefore more socially optimal to regulate car USE than to regulate its ownership. If the cheap car generates more pollution than other cars, it could certainly be banned on those grounds. But a cheap car generates no more congestion than an expensive car. Otherwise, banning cheap cars just creates a cash transfer from consumers to the producers of more expensive cars, and yields no public revenue for public investments. It may have some marginal congestion benefits, but these congestion benefits will be poorly targeted and will be therefore far lower than the aggregate social benefits of a congestion charge. In poor areas, where there is likely to be the least congestion, people will be the most likely to be priced out of the auto market, facing higher costs and bringing little congestion relief, while in wealthy areas, where there is likely to be the worst congestion, people will simply switch to more expensive cars and again there will be no congestion relief. If the purpose of the policy is congestion relief, it is likely to be a far less effective policy than a better targeted congestion charge. If the purpose is to generate revenues for public investments, it does no good either. With a congestion charge, a rich person or a moderate income person can prioritize their trips into the city center and only make them when the trip is really worth the social cost of 8 pounds (or whatever the charge is). This is a much more flexible and fair policy than an alternative license plate scheme which the rich can always get around by buying a second car, or a ban on cheap cars, which the rich can always get around by buying an expensive car. Best Walter -----Original Message----- From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org [mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org@list.jca.apc.org] On Behalf Of Zvi Leve Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 11:34 AM To: Global 'South' Sustainable Transport Subject: [sustran] Re: MMRDA will file PIL to block Tata's Rs1 lakh car Don't forget that developing a 'national' auto industry may also be one of the development goals of the Indian Government. Clearly national development goals may conflict with the development goals of other levels of government (ie the Mumbai Metropolitan Area). We generally leave it to the politicians to balance these various trade-offs, but appealing to the courts to force the debate is certainly a legitimate approach. Shanghai took an interesting approach: among other things they apparently banned cars with engine sizes less than 1600 CC. On the one hand this may seem perverse because most people clearly cannot afford cars with such a large engine size, but on the other hand it is quite clear that Shanghai would never be able to accommodate all of the vehicles that it's citizens might want to purchase. Plus this policy also serves to reinforce the Shanghai Automotive Industry Corporation which produces mid-sized vehicles (the Santana) under license from VW - with engine sizes of 1600! Presumably Mumbai (and many other Indian cities) is in a similar situation. People want mobility (in the sense that being able to move about gives access to more options). If people cannot get where they want to go in a convenient way, then it is not surprising that they will turn to other 'private' options such as personal motorized vehicles. India already has relatively significant rates of 'motorization' in the sense of 'motorized vehicl