[sustran] Re: ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt!

[Cherry, Christopher Robin]

For the record: There has historically been a rail corridor from Kunming
to Hanoi, through Hekou. This is an old narrow gauge line built by the
French in the early 1900's. From what I've heard, the service is
agonizingly slow and unreliable. Most people opted for long distance
buses (as in much of Yunnan province). In the last couple of years, the
Chinese segment has been shut down to passenger travel and is used
primarily for freight. Now, one can take a bus from Kunming to Hekou,
then transfer to train, The trip can take over 24 hours to travel around
500km (as the crow flies). Certainly, there needs to be a flexible
improvement to infrastructure, but the historic highway AND rail systems
have not seemed to meet the goods and passenger movement demands of this
century. 

Chris

-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+cherry=utk.edu at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+cherry=utk.edu at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf Of sustran-discuss-request at list.jca.apc.org
Sent: Saturday, December 15, 2007 10:01 PM
To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 52, Issue 11

Send Sustran-discuss mailing list submissions to
	sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
	http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
	sustran-discuss-request at list.jca.apc.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
	sustran-discuss-owner at list.jca.apc.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than
"Re: Contents of Sustran-discuss digest..."


########################################################################
Sustran-discuss Mailing List Digest

IMPORTANT NOTE: When replying please do not include the whole digest in
your reply - just include the relevant part of the specific message that
you are responding to. Many thanks. 

About this mailing list see:
    http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
########################################################################



Today's Topics:

   1. Re: ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt! (Zvi Leve)
   2. Re: ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt! (edelman at greenidea.eu)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Dec 2007 15:39:36 -0500
From: "Zvi Leve" <zvi.leve at gmail.com>
Subject: [sustran] Re: ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt!
To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Message-ID:
	<eca93d3a0712151239g9a4f923sba1af5cfbc055f63 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Todd,

Thank you for forwarding that article on. I do not know enough about
this
proposed highway to have an opinion on whether or not it is an
"appropriate"
project for the region, but I do not share your "knee-jerk" hostility to
it!

>From a developed country perspective it is difficult to imagine just
how
important providing basic access is! How many agricultural regions are
you
familiar with which literally are not connected to anything? Without a
road,
a village has no way to join the rest of the world. This highway is not
being built to serve passenger travel alone. When it is physically
impossible to get things from point A to point B, then "environmental"
and
"sustainability" considerations will often receive less weight. And
certainly when it is some westerner preaching that underdeveloped
regions
should stay that way!

Certainly many multi-national companies will be receiving generous
contracts
to execute the works, and it goes without saying that this will not help
lower the already skyrocketing rates of motorization which Vietnam is
experiencing.... A rail alternative would certainly be extremely
expensive
as well, but it would be far less practical in terms of providing access
to
a wide range of users throughout the area.... And it's not like the
companies involved in providing this option would be local ones either.

Vietnam is facing huge development challenges, and not only vis-a-vis
motorized transportation. Take a look (with an open mind) at last week's
leader in The Economist about rising food prices:
http://economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10252015

The ADB article itself specifies the reasons why a road is more
appropriate
than some other type of transportation connection:

"It currently takes two days for passenger cars and three days for
trucks to
travel from Kunming, PRC to Ha Noi. Once the new highway is completed in
2012, drivers will be able to make the overland trip in less than one
day.

Reduced travel times will allow industries clustered around Ha Noi and
Viet
Nam's major port city, Hai Phong, to expand into the country's
impoverished
northwest region, increasing employment opportunities and social service
access for communities along the highway corridor.

The new highway will increase Viet Nam's ability to export agricultural
and
maritime products to Yunnan province, and beyond to the huge hinterland
markets of southwestern PRC.

The highway will provide shippers in Kunming with a new channel for the
rapid shipment of products that depend on fast access to global markets,
as
Viet Nam's Hai Phong and Cai Lan ports are significantly closer to
Kunming
than Fangcheng port in Guangxi Province."



Cheers,

Zvi

On Dec 14, 2007 10:01 PM, <sustran-discuss-request at list.jca.apc.org>
wrote:

>
> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:39:53 +0100
> From: "Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory" <edelman at greenidea.eu>
> Subject: [sustran] ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt!
> To: Sustran Resource Centre <sustran-discuss at jca.apc.org>,
Editors
>        Carbusters <editors at carbusters.org>, sandy.chan at uitp.org,
> ALLEN
>        Heather <heather.allen at uitp.com>,       SAGEVIK Margrethe
>        <sagevik at uic.asso.fr>
> Message-ID: <4762EA19.4060703 at greenidea.eu>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
>
>
>
> ++++
>
>
> WELL, at least they don't use the word "sustainable" anywhere in these
> press releases... no mention of railway, BRT, buses, public transport,
> etc. I imagine they would even if it was a small part of the scheme...
> seems like a railway for long-distance would be a better idea, and
buses
> on the expressway.
>
> ... the documents linked to from here barely mention transport at all:
> <
>
http://www.adb.org/Media/Articles/2007/12331-asian-climates-changes/defa
ult.asp
> >
>
> CLEARLY creating more economic opportunities is important, but Japan
and
> the USA together own about 30% of the shares in the ADB, and it seems
> like a good future is being created for lorry and private automobile
> manufacturers and the oil industry...
>
> Please enlighten me - I am sure I am missing lots of important
details.
>
> - T
>
> --
> --------------------------------------------
>
> Todd Edelman
> Director
> Green Idea Factory
>
> Korunni 72
> CZ-10100 Praha 10
> Czech Republic
>
> Skype: toddedelman
> ++420 605 915 970
> ++420 222 517 832
>
> edelman at greenidea.eu
> http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/
> www.flickr.com/photos/edelman
>
> Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network
> www.worldcarfree.net
>
>
>
>
>


------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Sun, 16 Dec 2007 00:32:39 +0100 (CET)
From: edelman at greenidea.eu
Subject: [sustran] Re: ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt!
To: sustran-discuss at jca.apc.org
Cc: editors at carbusters.org, sagevik at uic.asso.fr, sandy.chan at uitp.org,
	heather.allen at uitp.com
Message-ID: <62147.89.176.8.153.1197761559.squirrel at mail.smartweb.cz>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-2

Hi Zve, hi everyone..

> Todd,
>
> Thank you for forwarding that article on.
 I do not know enough about this
> proposed highway to have an opinion on whether or not it is an
> "appropriate"
> project for the region, but I do not share your "knee-jerk" hostility
to
> it!

>
>>From a developed country perspective it is difficult to imagine just
how
> important providing basic access is! How many agricultural regions are
you
> familiar with which literally are not connected to anything? Without a
> road,
> a village has no way to join the rest of the world. This highway is
not
> being built to serve passenger travel alone. When it is physically
> impossible to get things from point A to point B, then "environmental"
and
> "sustainability" considerations will often receive less weight. And
> certainly when it is some westerner preaching that underdeveloped
regions
> should stay that way!

IN my email I mentioned a rail corridor for long-distance, and I did not
imply that every farm or small factory would have to have its own
siding,
though that of course would be ideal. I should have been clear that I
meant a railway as the core, the backbone. Appropriate roads are
absolutely necessary.

How could you infer that I think Vietnam should stay underdeveloped? In
fact I think I said I appreciated and wanted the opposite.

>
> Certainly many multi-national companies will be receiving generous
> contracts
> to execute the works, and it goes without saying that this will not
help
> lower the already skyrocketing rates of motorization which Vietnam is
> experiencing.... A rail alternative would certainly be extremely
expensive
> as well, but it would be far less practical in terms of providing
access
> to
> a wide range of users throughout the area.... And it's not like the
> companies involved in providing this option would be local ones
either.
>
> Vietnam is facing huge development challenges, and not only vis-a-vis
> motorized transportation. Take a look (with an open mind) at last
week's
> leader in The Economist about rising food prices:
> http://economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=10252015
>
> The ADB article itself specifies the reasons why a road is more
> appropriate
> than some other type of transportation connection:
>
> "It currently takes two days for passenger cars and three days for
trucks
> to
> travel from Kunming, PRC to Ha Noi. Once the new highway is completed
in
> 2012, drivers will be able to make the overland trip in less than one
day.
>
> Reduced travel times will allow industries clustered around Ha Noi and
> Viet
> Nam's major port city, Hai Phong, to expand into the country's
> impoverished
> northwest region, increasing employment opportunities and social
service
> access for communities along the highway corridor.
>
> The new highway will increase Viet Nam's ability to export
agricultural
> and
> maritime products to Yunnan province, and beyond to the huge
hinterland
> markets of southwestern PRC.
>
> The highway will provide shippers in Kunming with a new channel for
the
> rapid shipment of products that depend on fast access to global
markets,
> as
> Viet Nam's Hai Phong and Cai Lan ports are significantly closer to
Kunming
> than Fangcheng port in Guangxi Province."

PLEASE tell me - leaving the initial expense part out of it - how a
highway can be better than a railway as the core of all of this? Russia
and the USA, despite all their other transportation mistakes, depend
heavily on railways for long-distance cargo.

Which companies are providing the oil used in asphalt? Vietnamese ones?
I
don't think so. The lorries, the police cars, the fuel? Sure, if I owned
part of Siemens or Alstom I might want a subway to be built from Beijing
to Lhasa... I think we need to be wary of knee-jerk responses to
proposals
for any kind of guided transport.

So, again, I was not I was saying against a transport corridor, but am
simply a little surprised that they got the cheap option, given the
growing problems with prices of oil, among other things. Sure, maybe
they
will invest the hoped for wealth in railways, but in the meantime people
will be investing in vehicles for the roads.

All this asphalt in the absence of other infrastructure seems like one
of
the bad examples some of us "Westerners" don't want to share. My
criticism
was directed more at the ADB then at officials or others in Viet Nam.

Thanks,
T


>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Zvi
>
> On Dec 14, 2007 10:01 PM, <sustran-discuss-request at list.jca.apc.org>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Date: Fri, 14 Dec 2007 21:39:53 +0100
>> From: "Todd Edelman, Green Idea Factory" <edelman at greenidea.eu>
>> Subject: [sustran] ADB in Viet Nam: Bring on the Asphalt!
>> To: Sustran Resource Centre <sustran-discuss at jca.apc.org>,   
sandy.chan at uitp.org  Editors
>>        Carbusters <editors at carbusters.org>, ,
>> ALLEN
>>        Heather <heather.allen at uitp.com>,       SAGEVIK Margrethe
>>        <sagevik at uic.asso.fr>
>> Message-ID: <4762EA19.4060703 at greenidea.eu>
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ++++
>>
>>
>> WELL, at least they don't use the word "sustainable" anywhere in
these
>> press releases... no mention of railway, BRT, buses, public
transport,
>> etc. I imagine they would even if it was a small part of the
scheme...
>> seems like a railway for long-distance would be a better idea, and
buses
>> on the expressway.
>>
>> ... the documents linked to from here barely mention transport at
all:
>> <
>>
http://www.adb.org/Media/Articles/2007/12331-asian-climates-changes/defa
ult.asp
>> >
>>
>> CLEARLY creating more economic opportunities is important, but Japan
and
>> the USA together own about 30% of the shares in the ADB, and it seems
>> like a good future is being created for lorry and private automobile
>> manufacturers and the oil industry...
>>
>> Please enlighten me - I am sure I am missing lots of important
details.
>>
>> - T
>>
>> --
>> --------------------------------------------
>>
>> Todd Edelman
>> Director
>> Green Idea Factory
>>
>> Korunni 72
>> CZ-10100 Praha 10
>> Czech Republic
>>
>> Skype: toddedelman
>> ++420 605 915 970
>> ++420 222 517 832
>>
>> edelman at greenidea.eu
>> http://greenideafactory.blogspot.com/
>> www.flickr.com/photos/edelman
>>
>> Green Idea Factory is a member of World Carfree Network
>> www.worldcarfree.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
> --------------------------------------------------------
> IMPORTANT NOTE to everyone who gets sustran-discuss messages via
> YAHOOGROUPS.
>
> Please go to http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss
to
> join the real sustran-discuss and get full membership rights. The
> yahoogroups version is only a mirror and 'members' there cannot post
to
> the real sustran-discuss (even if the yahoogroups site makes it seem
like
> you can). Apologies for the confusing arrangement.
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
countries
> (the 'Global South').
>




------------------------------

================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
(the 'Global South'). 

End of Sustran-discuss Digest, Vol 52, Issue 11
***********************************************