[sustran] Re: Delhi Metro + Post-Oil BRT + Biogas BRT

[Lee Schipper]

Kindly see our IEA book "Bus Systems for the Future",w hich still should
be available as a  PDF on the iea web site www.iea.org . the original
assignment
was to look into prospects for fuel cell buses (2000-2001) and get 1000
orders from a number of cities. No takers beyond a few experiments,
including one
still sputtering along sponsored by GEF, UNDP and others.

Confident in fuel cell (fool cell?) buses. At about 10 times more than
regular clean diesle or CNG buses (including all the trimmings, i.e.,
Hydrogen stations, etc), confident
they work, as both VAncouver and Chicago had satisfactory tests.

But as mass produced vehicles, they're just not here.  Diesel hybrids
are much closer -- we got pretty good results in Mexico City, after
intensive tests of both
a diesel parallel Hybrid (Allison) and a series hybrid from Brasil
(eletrabus).

Overhead trolley lines are VERY expensive and the trolley buses
expensive because so few are produced.

Biogas is still very marginal (I drove in a biogas taxi in Linkoeping,
Sweden)..the mainstay is diesel, of which a growing minority in OECD
countries
are ultra low sulfer diesel buses. The next is CNg, perhaps 8000 in
China and 8000 elsewhere. Then LPG -- a couple thousand in China,
plus Vienna and half of Copenhagen and a few other places (including
some in Paris). 

What matters is that buses (or rail) is relatively full, always moving,
organized in stations..then the differential environmental impacts
become small. When
buses are stuck in traffic, they lose money, waste fuel, and get
travelers angry..  When rail is expensive (usually), everyone looks the
other way.

So it comes down to what I suggest earlier -- what do you want, whom do
you expect to ride, and what do you want them to pay?

>>> schipper at wri.org 2/7/2006 6:05:08 PM >>>
In most Latin American countries, buses are sold from main cities to
smaller ones after around 5-6 years.

>>> edelman at greenidea.info 2/7/2006 5:37:33 PM >>>
From: Lee Schipper:

So while your earlier
> comments are certainly valid (lifetime of vehicles, etc) it comes
donw
> ot how ot value the land, the costs, the way the system is paid for
(and
> who pays)  and other
> ecnomic and social factors.

Todd: What I meant with "lifetime of vehicle" comment - and also query
about tyre particles - was simply  to make sure that buses last as
long
as possible, and how to do that... and the same with tyres.

The envelope should continue to be pushed - it seems to be happening
with the latest engines in regards to using gas, exhaust
recirculation,
etc. 

---

Regarding post-peak oil BRT, the thinking for the onboard fuel source
is mainly hydrogen, right? How confident is everyone in this? For a
new
BRT, are owners thinking they will go through two 15-year cycles of
Diesel or gas buses before they make the switch? Or three? Are there
energy-use advantages to getting electricity from an overhead
caternary
vs. some type of onboard hydrogen system? Are there any trolley-bus
(with caternary) type BRT systems? Are there any BRT systems operating
on biogas? (I know that Sweden has about 800 normal city buses powered
by biogas, plus one regional train). Are there any CNG BRTs? And if so
are they worried about future availability of CNG?

- T

------------------------------------------------------

Todd Edelman
International Coordinator
On the Train Towards the Future!

Green Idea Factory
Laubova 5
CZ-13000 Praha 3

++420 605 915 970

edelman at greenidea.info 
www.worldcarfree.net/onthetrain 

Green Idea Factory,
a member of World Carfree Network




================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
countries
(the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main
focus
is on urban transport policy in Asia.


================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
(the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus
is on urban transport policy in Asia.