[sustran] Re: Chennai monorail controversy

[Walter Hook]

Leaving aside the issues of cost and getting to and from a monorail, and
the difficulty of network development, I believe I've isolated the
fallacy that leads monorail and light rail producers to wildly
exaggerated claims about the capacity of such systems.  They calculate
the theoretical capacity of these systems based on the number of people
that these trains can carry, times the number of trains per hour that
the signaling system can handle, and simply multiply.  This will usually
give you an impressive number, and it seems very logical.  

The trouble is that at high volumes even in the best of systems there is
a fair amount of pushing and shoving to get in and out of the doors, so
at any station with high volumes of boarding and alighting, the stop
time tends to quickly move beyond allocated 10 seconds allocated.  In
two minute headways it does not take long before the train behind is
stuck waiting and a queue forms.   Hence, as with BRT the bottleneck is
the station stop.  However,   because these systems don't exist in
developing countries where demand is anywhere near high enough for this
problem to manifest itself, the capacity calculation mistakenly assumes
the bottleneck is the size of the vehicle and the lead time headway. 


-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+whook=itdp.org at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf Of Lee Schipper
Sent: Tuesday, February 07, 2006 10:26 AM
To: karl at dnet.net.id; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org
Subject: [sustran] Re: Chennai monorail controversy

I was thinking more generally of large over or underground systems (the
Bangkok Metro you illustrated in 2004 !). I did'nt even know about K..
thanks for the clarifications.

>>> karl at dnet.net.id 2/7/2006 9:59:38 AM >>>
Lee, Bangkok doesn't have a monorail, maybe you were thinking of Kuala
Lumpur. I don't know if this KL system has any adherents (have never
heard
of one), but after opening in August 2003 to a stated - by the then PM
-
forecast of 80,000 daily passengers by the end of 2003, possibly by the
end
of 2005 they had achieved half this number. I tend to agree with Eric &
Eric
that it seems there are so many monorail fiascos around that you can't
really just put it down to people's differing perceptions.
Bangkok Skytrain (an elevated heavy rail, not a monorail) is a
different
story. Although financially it's been a failure, overall it's had many
positive benefits for the city.
Karl Fjellstrom

-----Original Message-----
From: sustran-discuss-bounces+karl=dnet.net.id at list.jca.apc.org 
[mailto:sustran-discuss-bounces+karl=dnet.net.id at list.jca.apc.org] On
Behalf
Of Lee Schipper
Sent: Tuesday, 7 February 2006 10:45 AM
To: ericbruun at earthlink.net; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org 
Cc: preston at cc.wwu.edu 
Subject: [sustran] Re: Chennai monorail controversy

But one need only look to Bangkok to see the same problem...and the
Seattle
Monorail, like Bangkok, or the Metro in Lima, has many adherents.
Something
is not convincing to certain people!

>>> Eric Bruun <ericbruun at earthlink.net> 2/6/2006 9:26:27 PM >>>

I would suggest that concerned individuals have a look at the Seattle
Monorail fiasco. 
It shouldn't be hard to follow if one goes to the Seattle
Post-Intelligencer
and Seatte Times
websites and does an archival search.

Eric Bruun


-----Original Message-----
>From: John Ernst <itdpasia at adelphia.net>
>Sent: Feb 6, 2006 1:11 PM
>To: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport
<sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
>Subject: [sustran] Re: Chennai monorail controversy
>
>The experience in Chennai appears to be 
>increasingly common in the larger Asian 
>cities.  Following some initial work by ITDP, 
>Hyderabad was considering a BRT system, but 
>monorail and rail companies quickly came in with enticing proposals.
>
>Typically, these companies overestimate demand 
>and promise a totally self-sustaining system 
>running with only private investment.  Though 
>untrue, the promise is still appealing to governments.
>
>After one false start, Jakarta had a privately 
>financed monorail start construction.  But the 
>company soon came to the government asking for a 
>subsidy, then stopped construction.  The governor 
>set a deadline of 6 days ago for the company to 
>get started again or he would look for yet another set of
investors...
>
>It seems monorail is an easy dream to sell, a hard one to fulfill.
>
>Best,
>John
>
>At 12:18 AM 2/6/2006, Paul Barter wrote:
>>content-class: urn:content-classes:message
>>Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
>>         boundary="----_=_NextPart_001_01C62AED.77CA1878"
>>
>>Some of you may be interested to know that 
>>Chennai (formerly Madras) in India is in the 
>>midst of a heated controversy over public transport.
>>
>>The Tamil Nadu state government decision to opt 
>>for a huge monorail network is the issue.
>>See 
>><http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=chennai+monorail&btnG=Sear
ch+N

ews>http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=chennai+btnG=Search+News

>>for the latest.
>>
>>Both 'Metro' supporters and BRT supporters seem 
>>to be weighing in (with the heavy rail 
>>supporters louder and more influential it seems).
>>
>><http://www.hindu.com/2006/02/03/stories/2006020315440700.htm>http://w
ww.h

indu.com/2006/02/03/stories/2006020315440700.htm 
>>(Monorail plan ill-advised: Sreedharan)
>>"The Tamil Nadu Government's decision to go for 
>>monorail for Chennai city to meet its growing 
>>traffic needs is most `unfortunate' as it will 
>>not help meet the transport requirement of city 
>>commuters," says Delhi Metro Rail Corporation managing director E.
Sreedharan.
>>
>>Already the State had burnt its fingers with the 
>>"ill-advised" mass rapid transit system (MRTS) 
>>and the monorail would be its another 
>>"ill-advised venture," he said in a letter to the State Government.
>>
>>The State, which had asked the DMRC to submit a 
>>comprehensive report for a rail based metro 
>>system for Chennai, dashed off a letter to the 
>>Corporation recently asking it to stop all its investigations and
surveys.
>>
>>Expressing surprise over the decision, Mr. 
>>Sreedharan suspected that the State had been 
>>"influenced by monorail lobby with its tall 
>>claims and false promises." The lobby, the 
>>letter noted, had already stalled the metro project in Bangalore. *
>>
>>or 
>><http://www.hindu.com/2006/01/29/stories/2006012901640500.htm>http://w
ww.h

indu.com/2006/01/29/stories/2006012901640500.htm 
>>(Divergent views emerge on utility of monorail project)
>>
>>Any comments?
>>
>>Paul
>>
>>Paul A. Barter  |  Assistant Professor  |  LKY 
>>School of Public Policy  |  National University 
>>of Singapore  |  29 Heng Mui Keng 
>>Terrace  |  Singapore 119620  |  Tel: 
>>&#4365;-6516 3324  |  Fax: &#4365;-6778 
>>1020  |  Email:  paulbarter at nus.edu.sg  | 
>><http://www.spp.nus.edu.sg/faculty/paulbarter/>http://www.spp.nus.edu.
sg/f

aculty/paulbarter/ 
>>
>>
>>I am speaking for myself, not for my employers.
>>Are you interested in urban transport in 
>>developing countries? Then try 
>><http://urbantransportasia.blogspot.com/>http://urbantransportasia.blo
gspo

t.com/ 
>>
>>And consider joining the SUSTRAN-DISCUSS list, 
>><http://list.jca.apc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss>http://list.j
ca.a

pc.org/manage/listinfo/sustran-discuss 
>>or
<http://www.geocities.com/sustrannet/>http://www.geocities.com/sustranne
t/

>>
>>
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>
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>John Ernst   -  Director, Asia Region
>    ITDP - The Institute for Transportation and Development Policy
>Promoting environmentally sustainable and equitable transportation
worldwide
>  Visit http://www.itdp.org 
>- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -  
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>SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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(the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main
focus is
on urban transport policy in Asia.



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SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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focus is
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SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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on urban transport policy in Asia.

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SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
(the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus
is on urban transport policy in Asia.


================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
(the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus
is on urban transport policy in Asia.