[sustran] Comment on video - In Your Car No-one Can Hear You Scream!
Eric Britton
eric.britton at ecoplan.org
Thu Aug 17 15:28:32 JST 2006
Here you have the first cycle of comments and dialogue set off by this video
submitted by its producer/director Martin Cassini two long days ago, which
(video) as you may recall is posted along with a couple of hundred others in our
New Mobility Video Library, starting at
http://www.youtube.com/group/NewMobilityAgenda. You may wish to add yours either
there or right here. This is at the very least a pretty dicey set of questions
that Martin poses in his video, not least when he takes Hans Monderman's great
ideas and says, hey! why not here right in the middle of London? But the
commentary takes this on directly. (And as a not always so perfectly respectful
urban cyclist, I do like that 'pointless reds' remark.)
In fact if you click to the famous video which you will find in the Global South
Library at http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8Doy_7sOoM you can see how something
very much along those lines works at one busy intersection in India. In this
context I would also point you to Paul Barter's lively commentary on the full
Global South collection, which you can find at
http://urbantransportasia.blogspot.com/2006/08/naked-streets-and-safe-chaos.html
.
In conclusion, it just has to be said that we live in an interesting time. Here
is YouTube started for reasons that are planets away from what brings us all
here together, and yet . . . and yet.
To me it suggests that you too (that's a joke? Sorry!) should get involved.
ericbritton
All Comments (31 total)
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quasimojo <http://www.youtube.com/user/quasimojo> (2 days ago)
A great video - I agree with the need to reduce congestion and keep traffic
moving, but I'm not entirely sure I agree with the position that all traffic
lights should be removed. IME of London drivers and roads, if lights were
removed then a lot of junctions would become unpassable and gridlocked - because
users won't/don't care for other road users at all. (continued)
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quasimojo <http://www.youtube.com/user/quasimojo> (2 days ago)
(cont). It is this selfish aspect to human nature that I think your film
overlooks. If we were all as open-minded as you then London's roads without
lights would be fine - but alas we're not :( I like the right-turn-on-red policy
in the US however.... seems like a good (and practical) compromise.
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
Thanks for your thoughtful comments. But I think that people relax and behave
fine when they see a reason for slowing or stopping, i.e. for a pedestrian or
motorist who was there first; the opposite happens when we're treated like
zombies and forced to obey remotely-programmed lights that stop us in our tracks
and often make us wait for no reason.
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quasimojo <http://www.youtube.com/user/quasimojo> (2 days ago)
That's fine if traffic has the opportunity to flow but is impeded by red lights,
but what about London's congested roads? Box junctions are consistently blocked
by road users, stopping traffic from flowing in the other directions.
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quasimojo <http://www.youtube.com/user/quasimojo> (2 days ago)
(cont) If road users are so considerate of other road users then why do they do
it? I suggest that it's because road users are selfish by default and need
enforcement. Until intelligence can be legislated for, you're always going to
have to suffer at the hands of the lowest common denominator.
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
Again, thanks for your comments, but ultimately your logic leads to traffic
controls for pedestrians in busy shopping centres and station concourses. If
we're fit to filter as peds, why aren't we fit when we're peds on wheels? Of
course we're fit. Remove the controls and you remove the aggravation, and the
simple, instinctive priority rule of filter-in-turn will work wonders. Also, why
force the majority down to the level of the lowest common denominator? I prefer
the idea of raising standards!
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
The human default setting is enlightened self-interest. Charles Dornsife: "the
idea that in the absence of speed limits people will drive in a manner that
endangers their own and other people's lives ... is pure nonsense." A road
network without interference harnesses human nature, our greatest resource. But
a system that interferes with our better judgement and "treats us like zombies"
(Hans Monderman), turns us into zombies or silent screamers. I blame the control
system itself.
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quasimojo <http://www.youtube.com/user/quasimojo> (2 days ago)
Why force the majority down? Because there are millions of selfish morons behind
the wheels of machines that have the capacity to kill. I wish it didn't have to
be this way, but that's the way it is. Taking away more controls may alleve
frustration but it won't improve road safety imho.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
I like the video, I especially like the awareness of the fear of regulators and
insurers that seem to control life in general in all kinds of ways, not just
traffic. There's a nuance missing though I think. >>>
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
Thanks for your comments. 1. "a nuance missing" - please elaborate (perhaps you
have in the later comments). Here I will just say that earlier drafts were 20
minutes long, and I have a bunch of other material. It had to be cut down to
make it on to YouTube.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
Having a roundabout, a four-way crossing or a yielding road is not less of
regulation or control as a traffic light. In all cases there are clear rules,
only the rules are made clear by signs and markings instead of lights. An
egocentric driver would just as easily run a red light as he would not yielding
to roundabouts. So it's not about regulation and it's not about control. It's
about the efficiency of the control system. >>
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
As I say in the video, lights demand blind obedience. Roundabouts are better,
but not ideal. With no outside controls, as I hope the imperfect footage shows,
we automatically revert to the workable, ancient common law principle of
first-come, first-served, or first-in, first-out, or filter-in-turn (as it's
known in Jersey). That gives humans a sense of responsibility and control,
people watch each other instead of the lights, and hey presto, it works.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
Traffic lights are very simple to interpret, while an oncoming motorcycle who
has right of way can be very hard to spot depending on the circumstances. So
lights can be safer, unless the system behind it is setup way to inefficient.
Then the frustration about the lack of intelligence behind the system will cause
more problems then they try to solve. Hence the human brain in London will
probably be way smarter then the simplistic traffic light logic there. >>
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
Here in Holland there are loops in the asphalt to detect traffic in order to
prevent pointless reds (this is the actual subject, the stupidity of some
lights, not the lights as a whole). If traffic light timers and detection loops
are set up correctly, then there will be less frustration (since the system is
smart, fair, efficient and quick). >> (time limit between posts)
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
> Since they are easy to interpret and interactive for all road directions, they
will prevent false interpretations of traffic made by either stress, ego,
fatigue, reduced eye sight etc. The main road here has a system in daytime which
creates a wave of green lights when riding in the main direction towards or from
the center, when sticking to the speed limit.>>
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
That's interesting, thanks, and I'll give it some thought. But what is negative
about main road priority is (pace Kenneth Todd), it confers superiority on one
set of road users at the expense of others. It's much more democratic to use the
single queueing system, so the first to arrive at a junction is the first to
leave. Without controls, that is more or less how it happens. It's natural and
eminently fair.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
The control with the filter-in-turn is the rule that you have to let one vehicle
pass before you have right of way. With a roundabout it is the rule that traffic
on the roundabout has right of way. With lights it is the rule that you stop on
red and go on green. In all cases it is the drivers that control their vehicle
and give way (or not). They are all means of "traffic control", it's just that
lights in London apparently have very inefficient logic / detection systems.
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
I take your point, and it's true that many London lights are abysmally phased,
but why impose an expensive control system in the first place when you have a
brilliant innate control system that has evolved over millennia: human nature
and human skill. We can filter as pedestrians; we can filter when we're
pedestrians on wheels.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
At night all lights here are red unless you approach it at the speed limit, in
which case (when there is no traffic on the other roads approaching) it will go
green just before you would want to slow down for the red. In that case it is
much faster and safer than a filter-in-turn system. If you design the logic of a
light properly, it has the potential to be more efficient, quicker and safer.
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
There was a typo in my last posting. This is the corrected entry: Certainly I'd
like to see the system, but at the moment, through long observation and
experience, I still think we're best off left to own devices. So we might have
to agree to disagree! But show me your system. Certainly I'll include it in the
eventual full-length film if and when I get the funding or commission.
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romancassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/romancassini> (19 hours ago)
Very well saying "if you design the light properly", but it is quite clear that
they have not yet been designed in your efficient, Utopian manner. What is the
point in spending countless thousands trying to invent 'traffic light A.I.',
when it has been proved in deregulated cities that removing them altogether
serves the same purpose.
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
Thanks, that's very useful, and perhaps we can meet / explore your points more
fully when the time comes
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
I don't think that your analogy between pedestrian traffic and high speed
vehicle traffic is true. Pedestrian speed is normally slow and relatively
identical. The difference in car speeds can be much higher. When two roads cross
with a filter-in-turn system, all cars will have to slow down even when there is
no traffic. For two high speed roads, traffic lights CAN be safer and more
efficient / faster (if setup like here).
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
What's wrong with traffic slowing down approaching a junction? I would respond
at more length but I'm a bit busy right now. I'm sure we'll talk again!
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
Here a crossing without lights, but also apparently without rules:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fg9f93gpfbo
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
To pilootdotcom - I think I deleted your last comment by mistake, the one that
begins "Don't get me wrong". Please re-post it if possible, thanks!
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
For crossings on street level, filter-in-turn will probably work better than
lights. But when a slow street crosses a fast corridor, you don't want fast cars
slowing down because of the infrequent likelihood of crossing / turning traffic
from that street. In fact, when there usually isn't any crossing traffic, there
is a higher risk of people not slowing down anyway. A light which is always
green on the corridor except when traffic is detected from the street will be
safer and faster. Right?
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (2 days ago)
Traffic slowing down approaching a junction will increase congestion (duh?).
Isn't that where this whole discussion / documentary is all about? To find
systems that will work with the best efficiency for a particular situation in
order to prevent traffic jams, annoyances, polution and accidents?
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mjcassini <http://www.youtube.com/user/mjcassini> (2 days ago)
I know what you mean, but not sure you "have to find a system". Wherever roads
intersect, filter-in-turn works because it encourages traffic to proceed at
speeds appropriate for the conditions. I don't mind some psychological traffic
calming, such as bushes and fountains. If humans aren't distracted by lights and
signs, and allowed to exercise their own intelligence, they proceed steadily and
filter. So the traffic keeps flowing, instead of being held up at lights.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (9 hours ago)
I'm not saying traffic lights on all crossings are the way to go. A lot of times
it can be indeed overdone. But there are plenty of situations, especially where
speed differences between crossing roads are big, where traffic lights are
(much) safer and can lead to a smoother / quicker traffic flow.
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pilootdotcom <http://www.youtube.com/user/pilootdotcom> (9 hours ago)
The problem isn't so much the traffic lights themselves, but the policy makers
there apparently not managing traffic situations properly and not using the
traffic light technology available to them in a smart way. Saying simply that
traffic lights don't work is too short sighted (just like saying that only
traffic lights are a guarentee for proper traffic control). It's more complex
than you portray, in my opinion :-)
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