[sustran] Re: "I find Eric Britton's reply entirely inappropriate."

[Sujit Patwardhan]

Why so much fuss, and where's the need to apologise?
Sorry to those who think otherwise but many people around the world are
offended by US Government's/Administration's arrogance. I don't see anything
wrong with Eric's response.
--
Sujit


On 4/8/06, Eric Britton <eric.britton at ecoplan.org> wrote:
>
>  Dear Jonathan and dear Sustran friends,
>
>
>
> Oops and ouch! Now I remember why I have always made a point of avoiding
> this kind of polemic.  I remember when Jonathon and Todd were going at it
> con brillo a bit back, and all I could think at the time is that both are
> doing such important work, and while a certain amount of critical dissonance
> is always welcome, it does not help when it becomes too personal.  We have
> enough genuine antagonists out there who need to be dealt with in our uphill
> struggle for sustainability, for us to be very cautious about discrediting
> each other.  So let me see if I can get out of this quickly so we can get on
> to more important things.
>
>
>
> Anyway . . . sorry everyone, but I got a bit carried away when Sunny
> suggested sharing this with the group. Now we are in the main rather far
> away from our reason for being here, but there is I rather think a deeper
> and still relevant logic to the point which I have obviously made with
> insufficient tact. Let me give this one last whack and then get back to
> work.
>
>
>
> Let me stick with the immediate facts at the base of my heart-felt
> statement, which had nothing to do with Livingstone's past behaviour over
> his long, raucous, but very useful career.  I was applauding the good mayor
> for going after the US embassy in every day language in its legalistic
> defense of their inalienable right not to pay a toll. (And it is a toll and
> not a tax.)
>
>
>
> So yes, I would like the US government to line up on this one and pay up
> just like you and I do in our daily lives. For reasons that you too surely
> appreciate. I have followed the releases on this from our Embassy and I am
> not impressed. From a professional, environmental and social perspective I
> find their behaviour more than embarrassing, and why they chose to make a
> "cause celebre" of  this cannot be pure accident. They and their deep
> pocketed oil friends who constitute the present administration are sending a
> message.
>
>
>
> As always when we are confronted with a difference of opinion, it is off
> to the dictionary, in this case Webster's Unabridged, Second edition, which
> tells us this:
>
>  ·         "Chiseling" – "Obtaining of goods or money under false
> pretenses or misrepresentation".
>
>
>
> Hmm. I am into the 'false pretenses' bit here. Let me see, if I like Mr.
> Tuttle had made my fortune in the car business, and was part of a political
> network that was strongly opposed to anything that might in anyway hinder
> the 'old mobility' car-based oil-based system, and I had a shot at it, I
> surely would try to find a way to undermine any sort of policy which might
> spread like a (benevolent) virus. And being a 'diplomat' (as it were. . . I
> rather think a political appointee of the current president), I would seek
> to do this on legalistic grounds. And there you have it.
>
>
>
> Finally. . .  as to Ken's doing "good things for transport".  Well, good
> and less good.  But hey! that's what mayors do, at best. It's a big,
> complicated and conflicted world out there, and when it comes to sustainable
> mobility by any name we, the main proponents of these policies, still have
> quite some way to go before we have made it easy for them. Which is indeed
> our job.
>
>
>
> So, if I may: Now back to transport and better and softer cities. If you
> want to tangle more on this Jonathan, may I respectfully suggest we do it in
> private?
>
>
>
> Warm regards,
>
>
>
> Eric Britton
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> I find Eric Britton's reply entirely inappropriate.
>
>
>
> Ken Livingstone has been referred for disciplinary action for calling the
> US Ambassador a "chiselling little crook." This follows an initial action,
> where he was disciplined for making antisemitic remarks (that Livingstone is
> a racist is well-known in the UK). His behavior is quite unacceptable for
> anyone in political office.
>
>
>
> Diplomats enjoy certain immunities worldwide. Whether or not this is
> appropriate, it is a matter of international convention. So to call the
> Ambassador a "chiselling little crook" for exercising his international
> rights is simply inappropriate.
>
>
>
> I find Livingstone to be a disgusting person, and I do hope that he is
> removed from office as soon as possible. He has certainly done some good
> things for Transport, but there are others who can build on this without
> feeling the need to utter insults -- often of a racist nature -- as a
> regular feature of the job --Jonathan
>
>
>
>
>
> -----
>
> Jonathan Richmond
>
> Visiting Scholar
>
> Department of Urban Planning and Design
>
> Graduate School of Design
>
> Harvard University
>
> 312 George Gund Hall
>
> 48 Quincy St.
>
> Cambridge MA 02138-3000
>
>
>
> Mailing address:
>
> 182 Palfrey St.
>
> Watertown MA 02472-1835
>
>
>
> (617) 395-4360
>
>
>
> e-mail: richmond at alum.mit.edu http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/<http://the-tech.mit.edu/%7Erichmond/>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, 8 Apr 2006, Eric Britton wrote:
>
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
>
> > From: Sunny [mailto:sksunny at gmail.com <sksunny at gmail.com>]
>
> > Sent: Saturday, April 08, 2006 3:05 PM
>
> > To: eric.britton at ecoplan.org
>
> > Subject: Re: "It would actually be quite nice . . .
>
> >
>
> > Dear Eric,
>
> >
>
> > It would be very nice if you can even post the same message even in
>
> > the Sustrans forum or if you can allow me to post it there I can do it
>
> > on your behalf. I agree to your idea and the embassy needs to pay the
>
> > fine. But one thing i don't understand is does the law separate the
>
> > diplomatic community from the regular law, I am sorry if the question
>
> > is too naive but i don't have much exposure to the law system.
>
> >
>
> > Sunny
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Eric Britton wrote on Fri 4/7/2006 5:22 PM:
>
> >
>
> >           "It would actually be quite nice if the American ambassador in
>
>
> > Britain could pay the charge that everybody else is paying and not
>
> > actually try and skive out of it like some chiselling little crook,"
>
> >           "When British troops are putting their lives on the line for
>
> > American foreign policy, it would be quite nice if they paid the
>
> > congestion charge.
>
> >           "We will find a way of getting them into court either here or
> in
>
> > America. We are not going to have them skive out of their
>
> > responsibilities."
>
> >           Ken Livingston. Mayor of London. quoted in BBC.CO.UK
>
> >
>
> > Okay. We, the government of the United Sates of America, my
>
> > government, a government of the people, the richest nation in the
>
> > world, who are invading countries without a real game plan and leaving
>
> > utter chaos in our wake. We who are refusing to cooperate with the
>
> > Kyoto Treaty while having an "environmental program" that is in utter
>
> > shambles. Who refuse to recognize the International Court of Justice.
>
> > We who are abridging the human rights of suspects without refer to the
>
> > Geneva Convention or our own laws. We who are passing taxes in our own
>
> > land that soak the poor and bring relief to the highest income groups
>
> > in the land. We who are - and without blinking an eye
>
> > -- the world's largest market for drugs of all kinds and ready to make
> war
>
> > on supply while we just shrug at demand, and who are effectively doing
>
> > nothing before the challenges of surging oil prices other than topping
> up
>
> > profits of those who need them least. All of that is normal. I guess.
>
> >
>
> > But when a representative of the United States government acts like a
>
> > "a chiseling little crook" (these are my words as an American citizen,
>
> > voter, volunteer soldier ready in defense of my country, and later
>
> > peace worker in
>
> > Vietnam) as has been the case recently with US refusal to pay the
> Congestion
>
> > Charge in London, I really have to conclude that something is terribly
>
> > wrong. It's not that I think that the London scheme is all that it could
> and
>
> > should be, but for my government to give aggressive evidence of extreme
>
> > antisocial behavior in this one small hopeful thing, instead of just
> paying
>
> > up and shutting up, I have to take pen in hand and share these words of
>
> > total disagreement with you.
>
> >
>
> > So thank you Ken Livingstone for your most justified remarks. And do
>
> > not give in!  Make the bums pay like everyone else. That is what
>
> > democracy is all about.
>
> >
>
> > (Dear Friends. Please forgive this rant, since this is not quite what
>
> > the New Mobility Agenda is about. But I have never done this before
>
> > and I hope you understand why this, small as it may seem to be, was
>
> > simply one straw too much.)
>
> >
>
> > Eric Britton
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > London mayor goes after US embassy for tolls
>
> >  Financial Times
>
> >
>
> > By Christopher Adams in London
>
> >
>
> > Updated: 12:16 a.m. ET March 28, 2006
>
> > London's mayor on Monday accused the US ambassador to the UK of
>
> > behaving "like a chiselling little crook" in a spat over the embassy's
>
> > refusal to pay the city's road toll. Ken Livingstone, the famously
>
> > outspoken left-wing mayor and long-standing critic of American foreign
>
> > policy, delivered his latest outburst during a television interview.
>
> > His assault on Robert Tuttle was prompted by the long-running dispute
>
> > over the embassy's refusal to pay the congestion charge, a toll that
>
> > is levied on those driving through central London during business
>
> > hours. American diplomats have refused to pay the £8 a day toll since
>
> > last July, racking up many tens of thousands of pounds in unpaid
>
> > charges. The embassy is believed to have about one hundred cars and
>
> > fines for each day of non-payment can be as much £150 a vehicle. The
>
> > embassy argues the charge is a tax and that diplomats are exempt.
>
> > Mr Livingstone, something of a stranger to diplomatic niceties, said:
> "It
>
> > would actually be quite nice if the American ambassador in Britain could
> pay
>
> > the charge that everybody else is paying and not actually try and skive
> out
>
> > of it like a chiselling little crook."
>
> > Earlier, he had told reporters: "When British troops are putting their
> lives
>
> > on the line for American foreign policy, it would be quite nice if they
> paid
>
> > the congestion charge."
>
> > The mayor's remarks were only his latest brush with controversy. He is
>
> > already appealing a decision by a disciplinary panel to suspend him from
>
> > office for four weeks after he compared a Jewish journalist to a
>
> > concentration camp guard. Last week he said two property tycoons with
> whom
>
> > he has fallen out over the development of the 2012 London Olympics
> should
>
> > "go back to Iran", though they are Indian-bron of Iraqi-Jewish parents.
>
> > He was re-admitted to Tony Blair's Labour party two years ago after
> being
>
> > expelled for standing against its official candidate in the first London
>
> > mayoral elections. A spokesman for the embassy said: "The mayor has a
>
> > tendency to hyperbole. I'm not going to dignify that."
>
> > Copyright The Financial Times Ltd. All rights reserved.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > US Embassy must pay C-charge
>
> > US Embassy owes £160,000 in unpaid charges
>
> > American diplomats are not legally entitled to refuse to pay London's
>
> > congestion charge, according to advice from lawyers. US ambassador
>
> > Robert Holmes Tuttle told his staff to stop paying last July and claim
>
> > diplomatic immunity, which gives them protection against paying taxes.
>
> > But legal advice to Transport for London says the US embassy is wrong to
> do
>
> > this and points to the fact that American diplomats haven't refused to
> pay
>
> > under similar schemes in Singapore and Oslo, in Norway.
>
> > Now, following the detailed legal advice, Transport for London will ask
> the
>
> > Americans to reconsider their position.
>
> > US embassy staff currently owe more than £160,000 in unpaid congestion
>
> > charges in London.
>
> > A US embassy spokesman said diplomats in Stockholm are exempt from
> paying
>
> > the congestion charge there. The spokesman added: 'The U.S. Department
> of
>
> > State remains convinced that the charge in London is an impermissable
> tax
>
> > and diplomatic missions are not liable for payment of such taxes to host
>
> > governments under the terms of the Vienna Convention.'
>
> > However, the UK government has already made it clear to the US that the
>
> > congestion charge is not a tax and that it decides what is and what is
> not a
>
> > tax in this country.
>
> > British diplomats pay road tolls in the United States and Transport for
>
> > London's legal advice makes it clear that the US Embassy's diplomats
> must
>
> > pay as London's congestion charge is not a tax.
>
> > A Transport for London spokesman said: 'The congestion charging scheme
> gives
>
> > no privileges to any VIPs, including the Mayor, MPs, London Assembly
> Members
>
> > or councillors, therefore we believe diplomats should pay.
>
> > 'British diplomats respect US laws, US diplomats should respect UKlaws.'
>
> >
>
> > Press Release
>
> > UAE Embassy settles congestion charge fees
>
> > 6-4-2006   201
>
> > The Embassy of the United Arab Emirates (UAE) has agreed that its
>
> > diplomats in London should pay the Congestion Charge, and has reached
>
> > a deal to clear a backlog of charges. After discussions with Transport
>
> > for London, the UAE has paid £99,950.00 for outstanding congestion
>
> > charge fines accrued by the Embassy from February 2003 to March 2006.
>
> > In a letter to TfL, the Embassy said: "I can assure you that every
> effort
>
> > will be made in the future for all diplomats working for this Embassy to
> pay
>
> > any congestion charges as and when they occur."
>
> > The Mayor of London, Ken Livingstone, said: "All Londoners will welcome
> this
>
> > settlement with the Embassy of the United Arab Emirates and, in
> particular,
>
> > their commitment to comply with the congestion charging scheme in the
>
> > future.
>
> > "The congestion charge is designed to reduce congestion in the busiest
> areas
>
> > of the capital.
>
> > "Those embassies, such as that of the United States, which flout the
> laws of
>
> > this country and misuse diplomatic immunity to evade the charge are
> enjoying
>
> > the benefits of reduced congestion but contributing nothing."
>
> > "British diplomats respect US law when in the US. They pay American
> tolls on
>
> > bridges and roads. The US Embassy should accept the advice of the
> British
>
> > government and recognise that by trying to ignore this country's laws
> they
>
> > do nothing but damage their standing in the eyes of London's citizens.
>
> > "I hope they will now take a leaf from the United Arab Emirates and
>
> > understand that as the richest and most powerful country in the world
> they
>
> > can well afford to respect this country's laws."
>
> > Malcolm Murray-Clark, Director of Congestion Charging said: "The
> congestion
>
> > charging scheme gives no privileges to any VIPs, so we do not see why
>
> > diplomats should not pay. The UAE has now joined the majority of other
>
> > countries who accept this is a legitimate charge."
>
> > Notes to Editors
>
> > 1.  Both the Government and TfL have received consistent legal advice
>
> > which says that diplomats are not exempt from paying the congestion
> charge.
>
> > We have the support of the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and eminent
>
> > members of HM Queen's Counsel.
>
> > 2.  In November last year, the Foreign Secretary, the Rt Hon Jack Straw
>
> > MP told the House of Commons in answering a written question that:
>
> > "We informed all missions by Note Verbale in March 2002 of our sustained
>
> > view that there were no legal grounds to exempt diplomatic missions from
>
> > payment of the congestion charge. Since then, in formal and informal
>
> > exchanges, we have informed missions of our view that the congestion
> charge
>
> > does not constitute a form of direct taxation under the Vienna
> Convention,
>
> > but is a charge analogous to a motorway toll, and that they are expected
> to
>
> > pay."
>
> > 3.  On 24th January 2006, Lord Triesman, the Parliamentary
>
> > Under-Secretary of State within the Foreign Office told the House of
> Lords:
>
> > "My Lords, we take every opportunity to remind diplomatic missions to
> meet
>
> > their obligations to comply with United Kingdom law and pay promptly any
>
> > fines that they incur. Following the annual Written Ministerial
> Statement on
>
> > parking and congestion charge penalties on 12 December, we will now
> formally
>
> > approach the heads of mission of the top 10 offenders in each category
> to
>
> > find out what steps they are taking to pay. We will then take further
> action
>
> > as appropriate".
>
> > 4.  All UK missions are expected to pay any road tolls and any parking
>
> > charges.
>
> > 5.  Support for this approach has come from both this country and the
>
> > US.
>
> > 6.  In an editorial on March 31st 2006, The New York Times said: "We
>
> > don't buy the idea that diplomats are immune to the surcharge".  The New
>
> > York Times editorial concludes: "Mr. Livingstone is certainly within his
>
> > rights to demand payment, which may now amount to hundreds of thousands
> of
>
> > dollars, including fines".
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries
> (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is
> on urban transport policy in Asia.
>
>
>


--
------------------------------------------------------
Sujit Patwardhan
sujit at vsnl.com
sujitjp at gmail.com

"Yamuna",
ICS Colony,
Ganeshkhind Road,
Pune 411 007
India
Tel: 25537955
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