[sustran] Re: Malaysian transit bus efficiency
Eric Bruun
ericbruun at earthlink.net
Sat Oct 22 04:10:46 JST 2005
I don't want to use more than my fair share of time, but I will add two points since this
is in my consulting domain:
1) Keeping high wages too high to make small vehicles economically attractive slows down both expansion and creation of driver employment. Other transport businesses pay lower wages commensurate with lower responsiblity with fewer passengers, so why can't transit? And if the service is expanding, it need not mean pay cuts for existing drivers. The expansion would be with smaller vehicles, and with seniority, drivers can move up to larger vehicles if they like.
2) Passenger Information Systems are reducing in price. Fairly good ones exist that don't depend on
vehicles already being equipped with an expensive Computer Aided Dispatching/Automatic Vehicle Location
system (but these too are coming down in price). However, if traffic gets too congested the Estimated Times of Arrival algorithms become unreliable. If traffic does not move much for long periods of time, it becomes impossible to say when the vehicle will arrive, because there is no way of knowing when traffic will start moving again.
Eric Bruun
-----Original Message-----
From: Su-Lin Chee <sulin at vectordesigns.org>
Sent: Oct 20, 2005 11:11 PM
To: Asia and the Pacific sustainable transport <sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org>
Subject: [sustran] Re: transit bus efficiency
Hi, I would just like to give some input from a Malaysian perspective.
I have been working on a public transport information system here and
using public transport here for several years.
First off, I dedicated my last few years to working on improving
public transportation information because Kuala Lumpur (the Malaysian
capital city) is choked by traffic, not least due to a national car
economic policy. Sitting in a traffic jam, to me, was soul destroying,
and with the introduction of light rail transit & monorail in Kuala
Lumpur (KL), I thought there must be better ways of moving around than
that.
Ever since switching to public transport, I have noticed several major
flaws with it, as Lee has pointed out. As purely anecdotal evidence, I
can see that:
1) It is true that there are a lot of bus trips that are inefficient
during the off peak hours. But this may be due to:
i) Using huge behemoth buses. I believe bus companies like using them
because they give more revenue per cost (of driver wage, bus cost and
fuel perhaps). However, they obviously don't make sense during off
peak periods. Yes, they should use smaller (mini) buses, and merely
increase their frequencies during peak hours. Additionally, these
buses would also be able to negotiate smaller roads, which are not
uncommon in outer KL.
ii) insufficient information on public transportation. Obviously, if
people don't know about routes/times, they are not going to be sitting
on these buses.
2) It would be seem to be true that buses are often greater polluters
than cars in KL. Hanging around the city centre where buses congregate
is poisonous. However, it could be because they are using old clapped
out engines or perhaps it's because they run on diesel? In either
case, there must be and should be a solution other than increasing
usage of cars.
3) It is true that public transport is often not economically
efficient to the company providing it. That does not mean that it is
not economically efficient to the city as a whole. I believe,
anecdotally again, that there are greater social benefits to the
social costs of public transport. For example when it comes to the
rail initiatives of KL, although they had cost a lot, they have
greatly improved the efficiency and wellbeing of urbanites as a whole.
Also, I have to admit that I think it's amazing that Lee suggested in
order to afford buying minibuses, companies should cut employees'
wages! I would think there are a myriad other ways to raise the
capital, not least of which is buying less of the huge behemoths.
Thanks for listening,
Su-Lin Chee
project manager
klang valley public transportation information system
vector designs
54a jalan kemuja
bangsar utama
59000 kuala lumpur
tel/fax +603.22826363
mobile +6016.2183363
> I have a different view. I think the compariosn shows the folly of
the US subsidizing transit but NOt trying to control sprawl, having
cheap fuel and vehicles and parking (as someone noted previously, etc
etc. Simply making transit cheap is perhaps (but not certainly)
necessary for a good transport system, but it is by no means
sufficient. Since 1970 the energy and Co2 intensity of urban bus
travel has risen, while that of car and air travel fell. Thnis also
means greater local emissions, enen if the empty buses run on clean
diesel or CNG, per passenger mile.
>
> Something is wrong.
>
> I would argue i a somewhat radical perspective we should stop
sending buses to the exurbs to subsidize that commuting to work. We
should lower public transport employee wages so we can afford smaller
mini buses whe the load clearly is not there.
>
> Years ago Clifford Winston of Brookings, hardly a transit basher,
wrote a great paper on this folly, advocating congestion pricing as
well as transit. In other words, if you don't penalize car use, you
can never make buses or even all but the largest rail systems in old
cities make sense.
>
> Does it make sense to spend $100million/mil for heavy rail and
subways that carry fewer than 5000 people /hour at peak? Does it make
sense for transit authorities to buy $500 000 buses when they haven't
got the !#@$$! to organize the buses into BRT and other efficient
corridors. Will Metro Washington DC authorities give in to the 2 or
2 BILLION dollars a metro to the Dulles airport from one of the more
outlying stations will cost?
>
> The issue is not what transit bashers say, its how to make transit
work for all of us. In the US it is not working......except in a few
fortunate places with lots of $$ or lots of people.
>
> PS In Stockholm and gothenburg today I noticed the buses are
relativey filled. Even on a rural bus yesterday i SE Sweden, and then
on a minor rural rail line, there were people everywhere. Of course it
is relevant that gasoline costs $6/gallon, and large AND small swedish
towns are relatively compact. If we are not going to move that way,
collective transport in the US won't get very far, so to speak.
>
>
>
> >>> Eric Bruun <ericbruun at earthlink.net> 10/20/2005 5:19:04 PM >>>
> Lee
>
> Using average data for the US is almost meaningless. It is a gross
overgeneralization. In fact, lots of "city buses" are quite crowded.
Many genuine city systems are, in fact, overcrowded due to
insufficient investment for decades. Try living in Philadelphia where
there has been no system expansion for decades, and no plans for the
next 10 years, either. I often have to stand in a crush load on the
streetcar at 9pm in the evening.
>
> The services that bring the average down are buses that are being
spread ever thinner, not just in
> the suburbs, but out to the exurbs. Also, the centers of small towns
have been largely dissolved in the US, so their transit systems are
also being spread ever farther as well. It is exacerbated by typical
policies of prioritizing peak hour-peak direction service on the few
viable routes left, so that large buses are bought for those trips and
then used the remainder of the day even when demand is low.
>
> By using averages, it gives ammunition to the transit bashers who
try to argue that transit is less efficient than
> cars. Transit is fine when you don't wreck your cities through
endless sprawl.
>
> Eric Bruun
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Lee Schipper <SCHIPPER at wri.org>
> Sent: Oct 20, 2005 4:49 PM
> To: caitr04 at csiro.au, Sustran-discuss at jca.apc.org,
UTSG at JISCMAIL.AC.UK, pharnett at levi.com, sustran-
discuss at list.jca.apc.org, Davewetzel at tfl.gov.uk,
NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com, WorldTransport at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [sustran] Re: [CarFreeCafe] RE: Get the right FUNDING
STREAM in place for public transit.Dal lasRapid Area Tra
>
> its very true in the US, fo rthe last 15 years. Tha'ts why I said US
below. it is NOT true in any other country, even though cars are
roughly 25-33% less fuel intensive, because city buses are simply not
empty elsewhere.
>
> Thanks to somone who can upload this..
>
> Washington, we have a problem.
>
> >>> pharnett at levi.com 10/20/2005 11:59:57 AM >>>
> Lee,
>
> Are you sure about what you say? Maybe true in the US but certainly
not in most European cities. In any case I have absolutely no doubt
that public transport and soft forms of transport are the future.
>
> In fact it is very obvious that the issue is that it is far too easy
and cheap for car owners to drive into our cities. Motorists
(commuting) should be taxed when entering our urban areas, eg
congestion charging in London. This has two benefits it reduces the
congestion and resulting pollution but it also provides funds that
could be ploughed back into public transport. Car parking is also
another major issue in town public parking should be greatly reduced
and out of town increased. Private parking should be taxed - again the
proceeds used for investment in the future. Road capacity leading into
cities must be curbed even restricted. Efficiency of public transport
should be paramount in any responsible governements policy.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: CarFreeCafe at yahoogroups.com
[mailto:CarFreeCafe at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper
> Sent: 18 October 2005 15:02
> To: scurader at comcast.net; caitr04 at csiro.au; et3 at et3.com; Sustran-
discuss at jca.apc.org; UTSG at JISCMAIL.AC.UK; sustran-
discuss at list.jca.apc.org; CONS-SPST-SPRAWL-TRANS at LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG;
Davewetzel at tfl.gov.uk; info at worldcarfree.net; jpclark at wtn.net;
CarFreeCafe at yahoogroups.com; Envlist at yahoogroups.com; itwmc-
uk at yahoogroups.com; NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com;
WorldTransport at yahoogroups.com; WorldTransport-Focus at yahoogroups.com
> Cc: LandCafe at yahoogroups.com
> Subject: [CarFreeCafe] RE: Get the right FUNDING STREAM in place for
public transit.Dal lasRapid Area Transit -DART - teac
>
> In ordinary times the AVERAGE US city bus, AVERAGED OVER ITS ENTIRE
DAY, uses more fuel/passenger-km than a car, because the AVERAGE city
bus oer the day is mostly empty. Hopefully the present buses are
running fuller. But how full?
>
> >>> Wetzel Dave <Davewetzel at tfl.gov.uk> 10/18/2005 8:11:16 AM >>>
> From: Richard Biddle
> Subject: Get the right FUNDING STREAM in place for public transit.
Dallas Rapid Area Transit -DART - teaches us a lesson. It's not a
sales tax!
>
>
>
> Today there was an interesting article in Dallas Morning News.
>
>
> Ridership on DART (Dallas Rapid Area Transit) up by 10-15% on
various routes in the Dallas area in Sept, due to high gas prices.
>
> So what is Dallas doing?
>
> You think they are increasing the number of buses and routes, right?
>
> Wrong! The Dallas DART system is running low on money.
>
>
>
> Their fuel budgets are being over extended. The fares cover only
20% of the
> operating costs.
>
>
>
> Their costs for fuel to run the buses is up 50% this year.
>
> Most of their revenues come from sales tax receipts. Sales tax
receipts are down in Sept.
>
> So the city, in its great need for financial responsibility, is
CUTTING BACK the number of buses
>
> and routes to save money.
>
> Of course, financially, you can see why.
>
> But just when folks are being urged to 'ride mass transit' and help
conserve, the City of Dallas
>
> is cutting back on services - so it can stay solvent.
>
> Once you start going downhill on energy, and prices rise, strange
things happen.
>
> SO when gas/diesel is really expensive, can they afford to run any
mass transit? Or any school buses???
>
>
>
>
>
> Taxing land values which are greatly enhanced by good public transit
is a much better idea.
>
>
>
> See TAKEN FOR A RIDE by DON RILEY - the Jubilee Line Extension in
the London Underground cost ?bn but raised land values around the
stations by ?3bn!
>
>
>
> http://www.schalkenbach.org/store.php?crn=83
> <http://www.schalkenbach.org/store.php?
crn=83&rn=316&action=show_detail>
> &rn=316&action=show_detail
>
> http://www.schalkenbach.org/images/products/316_large_image.jpg
> <http://www.schalkenbach.org/images/products/316_large_image.jpg> ]
>
>
>
> --
> Richard L. Biddle, Director
> Henry George School of Social Science
> Henry George Birthplace Museum
> 413 South 10th Street
> Philadelphia, PA 19147
> Web: <http://www.geocities.com/henrygeorgeschool>
> http://www.geocities.com/henrygeorgeschool
> Email: HGSPhila at gmail.com <mailto:HGSPhila at gmail.com>
> (215) 922-4278 office / voice
> (215) 407-9555 cell / voice
> SKYPE: biddlepa
>
>
>
>
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> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
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the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.
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> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list,
the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.
>
>
> ================================================================
> SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list,
the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.
>
>
Best wishes,
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SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.
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