[sustran] Re: transit bus efficiency

[Eric Bruun]

Lee

Of course I agree that something is wrong. 

I don't disagree with your statement about the folly of not controlling sprawl. And you are certainly preaching to the choir about smaller buses, about congestion pricing, and about bus priority. Most transit planners I know would agree with you.

But again, I think your definition of "urban" is not fair. Buses are certainly not running empty where I live.
And building expensive transit in built-up areas should not be evaluated only using energy efficiency per passenger as the criterion. It is about space efficiency. It enables dense development and the use of non-motorized modes It is physically impossible to have a dense city if everyone commutes using a car.  

I think that reactionary and corrupted US politics are really insidious and are what prevent progress, not ignorant transit planners. There is simply no way that we can have transit only in the places where it is most efficient. The suburban politicians dominate. They want service for their constituents too, and they want less crowding than the city folk have to endure. They will not fund a system that is only for the city. I note that most new rail systems have been built primarily for the benefit of suburbanites, with any stops in city neighborhoods between the suburbs and downtown as incidental. 

Furthermore, if we stop serving suburbs and exurbs, then the working poor can't get jobs because there is  
a huge job-housing mismatch, as you know. They get hurt if we get rid of inefficient operations. Transit is a social service. We are stuck with some inefficiency. I point out that everything else about public works in the US is inefficient too. Utilities, roads and school buses also cost more than they should, too, thanks to sprawl. 

Eric




-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Schipper <SCHIPPER at wri.org>
Sent: Oct 20, 2005 5:39 PM
To: sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org, NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com
Subject: [sustran] Re: transit bus efficiency

I have a different view. I think the compariosn shows the folly of the US subsidizing transit but NOt trying to control sprawl, having cheap fuel and vehicles and parking (as someone noted previously, etc etc. Simply making transit cheap is perhaps (but not certainly) necessary for a good transport system, but it is by no means sufficient. Since 1970 the energy and Co2 intensity of urban bus travel has risen, while that of car and air travel fell.  Thnis also means greater local emissions, enen if the empty buses run on clean diesel or CNG, per passenger mile.

Something is wrong.

I would argue i a somewhat radical perspective we should stop sending buses to the exurbs to subsidize that commuting to work.  We should lower public transport employee wages so we can afford smaller mini buses whe the load clearly is not there. 

Years ago Clifford Winston of Brookings, hardly a transit basher, wrote a great paper on this folly, advocating congestion pricing as well as transit. In other words, if you don't penalize car use, you can never make buses or even all but the largest rail systems in old cities make sense.

Does it make sense to spend $100million/mil for heavy rail and subways that carry fewer than 5000 people /hour at peak? Does it make sense for transit authorities to buy $500 000 buses when they haven't got the !#@$$! to organize the buses into BRT and other efficient corridors.   Will Metro Washington DC authorities give in to the 2 or 2 BILLION dollars a metro to the Dulles airport from one of the more outlying stations will cost?

The issue is not what transit bashers say, its how to make transit work for all of us. In the US it is not working......except in a few fortunate places with lots of $$ or lots of people.

PS In Stockholm and gothenburg today I noticed the buses are relativey filled. Even on a rural bus yesterday i SE Sweden, and then on a minor rural rail line, there were people everywhere. Of course it is relevant that gasoline costs $6/gallon, and large AND small swedish towns are relatively compact. If we are not going to move that way, collective transport in the US won't get very far, so to speak.



>>> Eric Bruun <ericbruun at earthlink.net> 10/20/2005 5:19:04 PM >>>
Lee

Using average data for the US is almost meaningless. It is a gross overgeneralization. In fact, lots of "city buses" are quite crowded. Many genuine city systems are, in fact, overcrowded due to insufficient investment for decades. Try living in Philadelphia where there has been no system expansion for decades, and no plans for the next 10 years, either. I often have to stand in a crush load on the streetcar at 9pm in the evening. 

The services that bring the average down are buses that are being spread ever thinner, not just in
the suburbs, but out to the exurbs. Also, the centers of small towns have been largely dissolved in the US, so their transit systems are also being spread ever farther as well. It is exacerbated by typical policies of prioritizing peak hour-peak direction service on the few viable routes left, so that large buses are bought for those trips and then used the remainder of the day even when demand is low.

By using averages, it gives ammunition to the transit bashers who try to argue that transit is less efficient than
cars. Transit is fine when you don't wreck your cities through endless sprawl.

Eric Bruun



-----Original Message-----
From: Lee Schipper <SCHIPPER at wri.org>
Sent: Oct 20, 2005 4:49 PM
To: caitr04 at csiro.au, Sustran-discuss at jca.apc.org, UTSG at JISCMAIL.AC.UK, pharnett at levi.com, sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org, Davewetzel at tfl.gov.uk, NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com, WorldTransport at yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [sustran] Re: [CarFreeCafe] RE: Get the right FUNDING STREAM in	place	for public transit.Dal lasRapid Area Tra

its very true in the US, fo rthe last 15 years. Tha'ts why I said US below. it is NOT true in any other country, even though cars are roughly 25-33% less fuel intensive, because city buses are simply not empty elsewhere.

Thanks to somone who can upload this..

Washington, we have a problem.

>>> pharnett at levi.com 10/20/2005 11:59:57 AM >>>
Lee,

Are you sure about what you say? Maybe true in the US but certainly not in most European cities. In any case I have absolutely no doubt that public transport and soft forms of transport are the future.

In fact it is very obvious that the issue is that it is far too easy and cheap for car owners to drive into our cities. Motorists (commuting) should be taxed when entering our urban areas, eg congestion charging in London. This has two benefits it reduces the congestion and resulting pollution but it also provides funds that could be ploughed back into public transport. Car parking is also another major issue in town public parking should be greatly reduced and out of town increased. Private parking should be taxed - again the proceeds used for investment in the future. Road capacity leading into cities must be curbed even restricted. Efficiency of public transport should be paramount in any responsible governements policy.

-----Original Message-----
From: CarFreeCafe at yahoogroups.com [mailto:CarFreeCafe at yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Lee Schipper
Sent: 18 October 2005 15:02
To: scurader at comcast.net; caitr04 at csiro.au; et3 at et3.com; Sustran-discuss at jca.apc.org; UTSG at JISCMAIL.AC.UK; sustran-discuss at list.jca.apc.org; CONS-SPST-SPRAWL-TRANS at LISTS.SIERRACLUB.ORG; Davewetzel at tfl.gov.uk; info at worldcarfree.net; jpclark at wtn.net; CarFreeCafe at yahoogroups.com; Envlist at yahoogroups.com; itwmc-uk at yahoogroups.com; NewMobilityCafe at yahoogroups.com; WorldTransport at yahoogroups.com; WorldTransport-Focus at yahoogroups.com 
Cc: LandCafe at yahoogroups.com 
Subject: [CarFreeCafe] RE: Get the right FUNDING STREAM in place for public transit.Dal lasRapid Area Transit -DART - teac

In ordinary times the AVERAGE US city bus, AVERAGED OVER ITS ENTIRE DAY, uses more fuel/passenger-km than a car, because the AVERAGE city bus oer the day is mostly empty. Hopefully the present buses are running fuller. But how full? 

>>> Wetzel Dave <Davewetzel at tfl.gov.uk> 10/18/2005 8:11:16 AM >>>
From: Richard Biddle
Subject: Get the right FUNDING STREAM in place for public transit. Dallas Rapid Area Transit -DART - teaches us a lesson. It's not a sales tax!

 

Today there was an interesting article in Dallas Morning News.


Ridership on DART (Dallas Rapid Area Transit) up by 10-15% on various routes in the Dallas area in Sept, due to high gas prices.

So what is Dallas doing?

You think they are increasing the number of buses and routes, right?

Wrong!   The Dallas DART system is running low on money.  

 

Their fuel budgets are being over extended.  The fares cover only 20% of the
operating costs.    

 

Their costs for fuel to run the buses is up 50% this year. 

Most of their revenues come from sales tax receipts.  Sales tax receipts are down in Sept.

So the city, in its great need for financial responsibility, is CUTTING BACK the number of buses 

and routes to save money.

Of course, financially, you can see why.

But just when folks are being urged to 'ride mass transit' and help conserve, the City of Dallas 

is cutting back on services - so it can stay solvent.  

Once you start going downhill on energy, and prices rise, strange things happen.

SO when gas/diesel is really expensive, can they afford to run any mass transit?  Or any school buses???

 

 

Taxing land values which are greatly enhanced by good public transit is a much better idea. 

 

See TAKEN FOR A RIDE by DON RILEY - the Jubilee Line Extension in the London Underground cost £3bn but raised land values around the stations by £13bn! 

 

http://www.schalkenbach.org/store.php?crn=83 
<http://www.schalkenbach.org/store.php?crn=83&rn=316&action=show_detail>
&rn=316&action=show_detail

http://www.schalkenbach.org/images/products/316_large_image.jpg 
<http://www.schalkenbach.org/images/products/316_large_image.jpg>  ] 



-- 
Richard L. Biddle, Director 
Henry George School of Social Science 
Henry George Birthplace Museum 
413 South 10th Street 
Philadelphia, PA 19147 
Web:   <http://www.geocities.com/henrygeorgeschool>
http://www.geocities.com/henrygeorgeschool     
Email: HGSPhila at gmail.com <mailto:HGSPhila at gmail.com> 
(215) 922-4278 office / voice
(215) 407-9555 cell / voice
SKYPE:  biddlepa 



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================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.



================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.


================================================================
SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred, equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing countries (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main focus is on urban transport policy in Asia.