[sustran] Re: WorldTransport Forum Economics of TrafficCongestionand TDM

[Jonathan E. D. Richmond]

Absolutely right, Lee.

I wish someone would come up with a good methodology to do this. I have
yet to see an appropriate one in use anywhere in the developing world.

                                                     --Jonathan

On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Lee Schipper wrote:

> Clearly we have to change how we count particularly "we" in the
> transport community.
>
> Today in the Washington Post is a nice letter point out that the outer
> ring road proposed fro the DC Area, the so called "Intercounty
> Connector"
> will benefit greatly land owners/speculators/devleopers whose property
> values will rise when this new publicly funded road reaches them. Of
> course the
> proponents of that road claim "congestion reduction" as a benefit.
> Well, which road in our region -- or any region -- really led to
> "congestion reduction"? Who benefitted in that calculation?
>
> So the issue is how to frame the calculation or estimation of winners
> and losers in a way that counts people and access, not just cars and
> speed.
>
> >>> "Jonathan E. D. Richmond" <richmond at alum.mit.edu> 7/21/2005 7:26:13
> AM >>>
>
> Yes, of course the benefits to the rich do swamp those to the poor,
> but
> the way things are calculated it does not come out looking that way.
> To
> start with, benefit assessments tend to focus on travel time saved and
> not gains in mobility to society. To proceed with the problem, members
> of
> the informal economy -- who use the most basic services -- are often
> not
> counted in at all and, if they are counted, their time value is
> said to be minimal --Jonathan
>
>
>
>
> On Thu, 21 Jul 2005, Lee Schipper wrote:
>
> > I would argue that the "benefits to the poor man" SWAMP those to the
> > "rich man" because there are so many
> > poor women and men who benefit, vs a minority of rich -- of which by
> > definition there are only a few. There is also a middle
> > class, some  (many) of whom are in cars (two-wheelers).
> >
> > I met a man from Jakarta on the plane once who complained about the
> new
> > BRT corridor. He said (mistakenly) that the
> > BRT was bad for Jakarta because it slowed down traffic in cars. THe
> > rich are in those cars, he mused, and those are the ones
> > who make business and make the country go.
> >
> > I don't see why we need a robin hood to take from the poor and build
> > roads for the rich. I also strongly believe in toll roads and
> > London-style schemes -- so those who move in th eir own vehicles pay
> > more than those who do not, irrespective of who is rich or poor but
> > drives a car.
> >
> > >>> richmond at alum.mit.edu 7/20/2005 11:40:26 PM >>>
> >
> > There are important questions about what wage rate to use in these
> > congestion measures if they are to be used in making decisions. The
> > income
> > of car owners is generally higher than those without cars, so in
> > choosing
> > who to give "benefits," calculations using income of beneficiaries
> > will
> > find that there is a greater "social benefit" from doing things that
> > help
> > the rich rather than the poor.
> >
> > This is one of the ways that expensive metro rail systems can be
> > justified
> > over simpler bus alternatives, for example: it is argued that they
> are
> > more likely to take cars off the road, and the time savings to the
> > former
> > road users are valued highly. The social value of improving basic
> > urban
> > bus services for large numbers of people who depend on them is shown
> > as
> > far less, by comparison, because the poor earn only a fraction of
> the
> > income of car users and their value of time is said to be much less.
> >
> > What do others think? Should we, in social decision making, regard
> the
> > benefits to a poor person as worth less than those of a wealthier
> > person?
> > If so, what sort of methodological change does that imply?
> >
> >
> --Jonathan
> >
> > -----
> >
> > Jonathan E. D. Richmond                               02 524-5510
> > (office)
> > Visiting Fellow                               Intl.: 662 524-5510
> > Urban Environmental Management program,
> > School of Environment, Resources and Development
> > Room N260B                                            02 524-8257
> > (home)
> > Asian Institute of Technology                 Intl.: 662 524-8257
> > PO Box 4
> > Klong Luang, Pathumthani 12120                        02 524-5509
> > (fax)
> > Thailand                                      Intl:  662 524-5509
> >
> > e-mail: richmond at ait.ac.th               Secretary:  Kuhn Vantana
> > Pattanakul
> >         richmond at alum.mit.edu		              02
> 524-6368
> > 					      Intl:  662 524-6132
> > http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/
> >
> >
> >
> > ================================================================
> > SUSTRAN-DISCUSS is a forum devoted to discussion of people-centred,
> > equitable and sustainable transport with a focus on developing
> countries
> > (the 'Global South'). Because of the history of the list, the main
> focus
> > is on urban transport policy in Asia.
> >
>
> -----
>
> Jonathan E. D. Richmond                               02 524-5510
> (office)
> Visiting Fellow                               Intl.: 662 524-5510
> Urban Environmental Management program,
> School of Environment, Resources and Development
> Room N260B                                            02 524-8257
> (home)
> Asian Institute of Technology                 Intl.: 662 524-8257
> PO Box 4
> Klong Luang, Pathumthani 12120                        02 524-5509
> (fax)
> Thailand                                      Intl:  662 524-5509
>
> e-mail: richmond at ait.ac.th               Secretary:  Kuhn Vantana
> Pattanakul
>         richmond at alum.mit.edu		              02 524-6368
> 					      Intl:  662 524-6132
> http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/
>

-----

Jonathan E. D. Richmond                               02 524-5510 (office)
Visiting Fellow                               Intl.: 662 524-5510
Urban Environmental Management program,
School of Environment, Resources and Development
Room N260B                                            02 524-8257 (home)
Asian Institute of Technology                 Intl.: 662 524-8257
PO Box 4
Klong Luang, Pathumthani 12120                        02 524-5509 (fax)
Thailand                                      Intl:  662 524-5509

e-mail: richmond at ait.ac.th               Secretary:  Kuhn Vantana Pattanakul
        richmond at alum.mit.edu		              02 524-6368
					      Intl:  662 524-6132
http://the-tech.mit.edu/~richmond/