[sustran] Re: Skytrain

Eric Bruun ericbruun at earthlink.net
Tue May 27 02:25:26 JST 2003


Karl

1) Actually, many of us are vitally interested in how the finances of the
SkyTrain are doing. It is an extremely important issue, since privately
financed proposals are being presented around the world. I too would
appreciate some information.

2) You are right about the lack of transparency in decision making in the US
(and Canada). There are some decisions begin made which are clearly to the
benefit of special interests and disregard more urgent investments with
better return-on-investment to the public at large. For example, the Blue
Line extention of the Washington, DC Metro cost $400 Million for only a
couple of miles and seems to be largely for the benefit of the professional
sports stadium owners. Meanwhile, a short light-rail line for the same cost
would close the U of the Red Line and address far more significant needs.
Same in Pittsburgh. There is a $300 Million tunnel under a river which goes
to the pro sports stadiums and then stops. If one is going to spend the
money on a tunnel, then the incremental benefit to cost ratio is very high
to extend it further into other communities.

Eric Bruun
----- Original Message -----
From: "Craig Townsend" <townsend at central.murdoch.edu.au>
To: <sustran-discuss at jca.ax.apc.org>
Sent: Monday, May 26, 2003 3:56 AM
Subject: [sustran] Re: FW: Land Value Taxation Event 23/04/03


> Karl,
>
> I haven't kept up with the recent details concerning the extensions to the
BTS
> and other issues regarding government support to Bangkok's rail systems
under
> construction. From your comments, it sounds like the Government of
Thailand is
> now providing financial support to the BTSC: an operating subsidy or help
with
> debt servicing?. Could you or anyone else provide me with some details
(e.g.
> cost, financing, government agencies involved)? It would probably be best
if
> you reply to me personally (townsend at central.murdoch.edu.au), rather than
> through Sustran, and would be much appreciated. Thanks.
>
> Craig
>
> Quoting Karl Fjellstrom <karl at dnet.net.id>:
>
> > Thanks for the updates & interesting information on the US.
> >
> > The 'lack of transparency' I was referring to is about mass transit
> > options. Transparency may be much greater in the US but even there, when
> > policy-makers (or was it a referendum) approve spending $180 million per
> > km on a metro rail system in Washington, are they really exploring all
> > available options in a transparent manner?
> >
> > Lack of transparency often means a lack of information about how public
> > money is being used. A good example is the comment below that
> > 'government institutions are not really involved' in the Bangkok
> > Skytrain. If only ... In fact, the government is paying for the
> > infrastructure for Skytrain extensions; 2km to open next year and a
> > further 17.2km approved. It's probably only through the ongoing intimate
> > involvement of the government that the system is still operating, as it
> > has never covered its operating expenses plus interest costs.
> >
> > Even if there were perfect transparency, however, it's true that the
> > interests of powerful landowners - as described below - would probably
> > keep something like value capture off the political agenda anyway, at
> > least in Bangkok.
> >
> > Regards, Karl Fjellstrom
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: owner-sustran-discuss at jca.ax.apc.org
> > [mailto:owner-sustran-discuss at jca.ax.apc.org] On Behalf Of Craig
> > Townsend
> > Sent: Sunday, 25 May 2003 4:23 AM
> > To: sustran-discuss at jca.ax.apc.org
> > Subject: [sustran] Re: FW: Land Value Taxation Event 23/04/03
> >
> >
> > Eric makes good points about the US. Similarly, in Canadian cities the
> > level
> > of transparency surrounding mass public transport projects (usually
> > rail) is
> > very high. Costs of public transport projects and operations are the
> > subject
> > of a high level of public scrutiny and debate. There is a big debate
> > going on
> > now in Vancouver about a proposed rail line, and due to extensive news
> > coverage anyone who reads the newspaper has a good understanding of the
> > costs
> > involved and the various debates surrounding the project: e.g. see
> > today's
> > Vancouver Sun newspaper http://www.canada.com/vancouver/story.asp?
> > id=30BD1DF4-E7CC-42BD-AA5C-D3D310ACF9E0). The level of transparency
> > surrounding road projects is typically much lower.
> >
> > One point that I would like to make about value capture is that it is
> > worth
> > clarifying who is capturing value. A form of indirect value capture by
> > government (and hence in theory all sectors of society) from transport
> > infrastructure improvements does occur in Australia because the
> > improvements
> > raise the market value of adjacent lands. Those increases are reflected
> > in the
> > level of property assessment and will result in more tax revenue to the
> > government. The situation is different in Bangkok where there are only
> > small
> > administrative charges on land owners, but no taxation based on assessed
> >
> > market value. The Bangkok Transit System is a privately owned and
> > operated
> > rail rapid transit system. The owners of the system make deals with
> > other
> > corporations, businesspeople, and landowners to mutually increase their
> > revenue, but government institutions are not really involved.
> >
> > Craig Townsend
> >
> > Quoting Eric Bruun <ericbruun at earthlink.net>:
> >
> > >
> > > I want to point out that in some places, public transport agencies are
> > > specfically not allowed to use land value capture. It would take
> > > changes in laws first.
> > >
> > > Secondly, the lack of transparency about costs for public transport
> > > projects is certainly not true in the US. The Federal government
> > > requires all kinds of documentation about local/state contributions
> > > and about future operating cost supports for public transport projects
> >
> > > before it contributes. This is then used by the highway lobby to point
> >
> > > out how expensive public transport is. But the truth is that there is
> > > no matching requirement for highway projects, especially not about the
> >
> > > operating and maintenance costs. This is good for the highway lobby,
> > > because much of the operating support comes from property taxes and
> > > general taxation, not from user taxes.
> > >
> > > Eric Bruun
> > >
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: "Karl Fjellstrom" <karl at dnet.net.id>
> > > To: <sustran-discuss at jca.ax.apc.org>
> > > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 5:05 AM
> > > Subject: [sustran] Re: FW: Land Value Taxation Event 23/04/03
> > >
> > >
> > > > Dear Paul & Craig, sorry for the delayed response.
> > > >
> > > > Bogota implemented a value capture scheme along the TransMilenio
> > > > (www.transmilenio.gov.co) lines which was apparently (according to
> > > > the Mayor of the time) successful in recouping some of the windfall
> > > > gains which accrued to land ownwers along the TransMilenio route.
> > > > This value capture is an important part of the funding arrangement
> > > > for the ongoing expansion of the system.
> > > >
> > > > The COO of Bangkok's Skytrain system in March gave a presentation to
> > > > the Thai-German Chamber of Commerce where he outlined major
> > > > increases in property values in proximity to the Skytrain stations;
> > > > especially for commercial premises like shopping malls. Responding
> > > > to a question, he said however that there was no plan for any kind
> > > > of tax/charge to capture the windfall gains to the owners of these
> > > > premises, but that they to some extent capture these gains by
> > > > imposing charges for the commercial premises to establish walkway
> > > > connections to the Skytrain stations.
> > > >
> > > > Similarly in Brisbane, when it is proposed to the transit officials
> > > > express strong interest in some form of value capture to fund system
> >
> > > > expansion, though nothing like that has been implemented there.
> > > > What's the catch? Here's my conspiracy theory: there is often an
> > > > incredible dearth of transparency and open debate surrounding all
> > > > issues of mass transit system cost, especially when it comes to rail
> >
> > > > metros. It's only when there is no financial black hole to hide,
> > > > such as in Bogota's bus rapid transit system, that you might see
> > > > these options openly canvassed. (Political commitment helps too, of
> > > > course...)
> > > >
> > > > Regards
> > > > Karl Fjellstrom
> >
> >
> >
>
>



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