[sustran] Comments about the reply of Eric Bruun

[Paula Negron Poblete]

I agree with Eric about the fact that large metropolis will be a total mess 
without rapid transit networks, but I also point out the fact that we 
usually see in  those systmes the "universal solution" to congestion and 
mobility problems. I think we need to keep our feets on the ground, by that 
I mean that we can't reject the fact that those systems are very expensive 
(the subway in Mexico city has a cost around 60 million USD per kilometer, 
that means 2 stations only!). Imagine what would it be, from a financial 
perspective, to implant a network in a city (in the specific case of Mexico 
city, the subway was set up in the 70's and the government hasn't payed for 
the whole network yet). Beside that, we can't forget that private cars are 
used not only because they offer more confort, security and flexibility 
than public transport, they are also the reflect of a need of "status". 
It's very nice to pretend than people who can afford cars will easily 
prefer to use rapid transit networks, but I think we need to concentrate 
also in the social reasons of their use. Concerning the role that rapid 
transit network plays in big metropolis in the Third World, it's not that 
important, if we compare with other means of transport. If I take the 
example of Mexico city, around 4 million travels are made by subway every 
day, but more than 16 million are made by buses and minibuses, and the 
number is rising. Even if rapid tansit networks can move more people than 
buses on a passenger per vehicle basis, the reality is that those systems 
are not only very expensive, but we also need to consider the topographic 
and geological caracteristics of the city, wich not always make easy their 
implantation.

_________________
Paula Negron Poblete
Universite de Montreal
Faculte d'Amenagement


-----Original Message-----
From:	Eric Bruun [SMTP:ebruun at rci.rutgers.edu]
Sent:	19 novembre, 1999 13:07
To:	sustran-discuss at jca.ax.apc.org
Subject:	[sustran] Re: Subway in Jakarta



I know nothing about the specifics of the project, but I have
some general comments. There is always the conflict between the
long term and short term. Surely a city the size of Jakarta
should eventually have a rapid transit system. I don't agree with
people who say that buses and private services like becaks will be
adequate for the forseeable future. Imagine what Mexico City
or Sao Paolo would be like without rapid transit networks.

Perhaps the pace of construction should be slowed down and more
money put into bus lanes, signal priority etc., But if the
government refuses to take road space and give it to public
transport, then expensive grade-separated systems are a must.
We actually have this problem even in the US -- the people who keep
criticizing grade-separated transit as too expensive are almost
never to be found when support is needed for bus lanes, which suggests
that their real agenda is to stop public spending or promote autos,
not improve mobility or livability. We end up with relatively costly
projects with high levels of grade separation, and generally ones that
benefit upper middle class suburbs most, because these are the ones that
can get political and financial supports. The question is: is this
better than doing nothing? In really big cities the answer is probably
yes.

Easier said than done, but rather than forcing operators to raise
fares to survive, public transport fares should be subsidized by taxes on
car and truck users. I understand that the new Bangkok Metro, because
it is supposed to be commercially viable, has fares so high as to
be unaffordable to most of the population. So the people that can
afford to drive will be the ones using the rail system. What is
wrong with this picture?  Eric Bruun

On Fri, 19 Nov 1999, Jachrizal Sumabrata wrote:

> Dear friends,
>
> The 15 kms project worth US$ 1,5 billion, which starts from Jl. Fatmawati
> in South Jakarta up to the Kota in North Jakarta, will continue its
> construction in 2000. It appears that it is an inappropriate ambitious
> project, not only because the crisis is still underway, but also Southern
> part of Jakarta is a highly controlled area.
>
> In addition, at the moment bus operators are still wishing to raise 
ticket
> prices, while urban poverty is still struggling to operate an NMT (Becak)
> in Jakarta.
>
> In relation to these problems, it may be argued that focus of benefits of
> transport investment was insufficiently assumed through its effect on
> economic growth only as in the past. More importantly, transport
> improvements should be also an instrument of proverty reduction.
>
> I am looking forward to your responds regarding this matter.
>
> Regards
>
>
> Jachrizal Sumabrata
> Faculty of Architecture, Building and Planning
> The University of Melbourne
> Parkville, Victoria 3052, Australia
> Telephone, +61 3 9344 9863
> Facsimile, +61 3 9344 5532
>